Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #90 on Apr 9, 2011, 11:50am »
sorry Orthican that wasn't really directed at you, it was for AKdude. I will edit it.
And if my extended diatribe at the end of that post bothers I can delete that as well. It could be taken as an attack when it is really just frustration coming through.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #91 on Apr 9, 2011, 11:51am »
It's all good.... And no, actually I think having people see the level of frustration that one such as yourself experiences with all this is a good thing for more than just as it presents on the surface. It is also why I asked if AKdude would take the time to read beyond that. For me, when I did look beyond the comments derived out of frustration it allows a better understanding of why it is there. ...does that make sense?
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #92 on Apr 9, 2011, 6:47pm »
Quote:
You claim to be ethical and yet you use one of the most nebulous and unproven techniques any chiropractor can use. If all you did was push on an arm to diagnose subluxations you would be pretty much in the same boat as everyone else, but most practitioners use AK to sell supplements that patients may or may not actually need, or to sell even worse garbage like 'hyperoxygenated water' or foot bath detoxes. Please explain to me how this is ethical.
Exactly right! AKdude's method of finding subluxations is every bit on par with that of Yochum finding them on X-rays, Cooperstein's NBCE method, etc. When it comes to finding subluxations, AKdude is no more a quack than anybody else!
"Truth be told, deeply, they really don't care about your answers. They care about resolution of their problems. When they ask about what it is that you can fix / cure, they are only asking for themselves, or their family / friends / coworkers who effect their lives directly. Always keep in mind the patients MOTIVATION for being in your office!"
You are correct in that they will not want your answers to be complex, yet they do ask. So it is important that we have a good enough understanding so that we can describe their problem in ways that allow them to understand it. Now in that we have agreed to that then you might also agree with this:
If you are asked a question and you have a good working knowledge of their respective problem then you by helping them understand it are allowing them to take ownership over their problem and not be the burdensome painful mysterious ailment that they have.
In healthcare today this is an important concept. People today are not as happy to be on the hook to others for their needs particularly if they have an understanding of what their needs are. If it means re education on what is a good ROM for the talocrural so as to help keep the achilles tendonitis away then it should be explained so they can play an active role in their rehab. People always appreciate this.
On this board however, it is a much different matter. We DO expect proof of a claim other than the subjective or the testimonial. Not to give people that come here a hard time. But more to let you know that critical thinking of this or any subject is the only way to separate the respective wheat from the chaff as they say.
As to your comment regarding the negative nature of this board I would simply say that you have not read enough here yet to come to any concussion of that kind. I too yes thought the same as you regarding this and initially came and then left then came back. Now after exploring the threads to understand the real issues that these people are trying to convey one realizes that the tone one sees after a cursory few comments are read here and there are not fully reflective of the nature of this site.
I really would like to share with you what conclusions I have come to regarding this if you care to read them. I have said a lot regarding my rudimentary understanding of the flaws in this field and you can read them all. I would say that if you do you would find that the real battle here is not "us against them" but more of letting the student know what they might be getting into and who some of their colleagues are going to be. You must admit AKdude, that there are quite a few quacky practices out there. I have had patients get scammed by these people and that's what keeps a person like me here. As to the others you should know that there is a mix of chiropractors in a range from those who got out of school right away once they realized some of the problems all the way to those with 30 years in and had a really successful practice. The interesting thing is that regardless of their respective experiences they ALL agree that there is a problem. If you agree that there is a problem you might find that you have more in common with this board than you might think.
Try to stay objective and try to take your personal feelings out for a bit and just step back and look at things for what they are. No one says here that you cannot do what you do because they have ALL done what you do and a lot continue to do it out of need. That really is not the point here. Revealing what the quacky crap that ruins your profession is the impetus and without doing so your profession will be doomed to be saturated with ethically questionable practitioners who are not really going to care that the other guy wants to do good. It starts at your schools. They do still hold on to some of the "history" of your magnetic healing fountainhead no matter what they tell you. Otherwise how do you explain it? These "other's would just as soon eat you as say hi to you. (figuratively speaking of course)
Just a thought
Ok, there is quite a bit here, so several responses:
#1. Of course its important to help the patient understand their problem. This is good patient management and you can expect greater compliance and greater results.
#2. This board expects proof of claims? Do you mean the double-blind, placebo controlled, randomly assigned "proof"? This may work for pills but it will never work for chiropractic. Ever. It can't be studied this way. Besides, if I KNOW how to fix a patient's hiatal hernia, and I KNOW it will correct their GERD, am I just supposed to sit on it until the official "proof" comes out 50 years from now? The proof is the consistent, repeatable results. And if everyone else waits 50 years for this "proof", I'll have already fixed thousands of cases by then. Makes no sense to me.
#3. Problems in our profession. Of course. Am I buried in a mountain of debt? You better believe it. Is there an over saturation of chiropractors? Maybe. Depends upon your perception. Are there chiropractors who are overtreating? Engaging in unprofessional marketing practices? Committing insurance fraud? Inappropriately touching their patients? I'm sure there is.
But I would bet that lawyers feel the same way. And veterinarians, some dentists, medical professions etc etc. No profession is without its share of problems.
But its a challenge that if responded to appropriately, will make our profession better. If you respond to the challenge by practicing unethically, better watch out for the karma. If you respond to the challenge by being more creative, better trained, more dedicated, improved office procedures, improved treatments, improved doctor-patient interaction, and it makes you more competitive in the marketplace then the next guy, well, that's a very good thing. It's all about how you respond to the challenges (either negatively or positively). If you have to resort to unethical behavior to be "successful" in practice, better rethink things. Chiropractic as an art is solid. Its the people that practice it that make it problematic.
At our chiropractic school, we had an AK practitioner that also was a professor. He got ran off our school due to politics, because he was not complying with the school's "science - based" approach. Funny thing, he is not accepting a new patient in his office for 5 years because he is booked solid. Booked for 5 years. As if there was nothing to learn from a chiropractor that is booked for 5 years.
There are ways in this profession to be successful and practice ethically. If you don't know how, then you must learn.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,548 Location: USA
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #94 on Apr 11, 2011, 2:49pm »
>This board expects proof of claims? Do you mean the double-blind, placebo controlled, randomly assigned "proof"? This may work for pills but it will never work for chiropractic. Ever. It can't be studied this way.
You're not dodging negative research so easily bub.
Ack, You're using a red herring fallacy by implying that only blinded studies are acceptable, they're not. Also, you can test some chiropractic techniques in a blinded manner if you use instrumented adjusting and zero force settings.
Did you use the red herring argument intentionally or out of ignorance? My bet is you're just parroting something you heard in school or a seminar.
Double blind studies are only one type of research study. Chiropractic has shown its limitations in numerous outcome studies.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #95 on Apr 11, 2011, 2:58pm »
"Besides, if I KNOW how to fix a patient's hiatal hernia, and I KNOW it will correct their GERD, am I just supposed to sit on it until the official "proof" comes out 50 years from now? The proof is the consistent, repeatable results. And if everyone else waits 50 years for this "proof", I'll have already fixed thousands of cases by then. Makes no sense to me."
Woof....just embarrassing really.....
Dude you gotta think before you write....I mean this is just astounding. You do realize that many md's could attempt to treat based on good results of something but until its proven they wont touch it.... There is a process here....
Your thought process is so distant from that of a REAL PHYSICIAN that you can't even really be that mad at ya....I mean you almost have to tip your cap to the ignorance. Its like talking to a little kid who wants to become a fireman but really has no idea what the job and reponsibilities entail.... its cute but totally void of reality....scary tho
Your responses also go to show why no one really takes chiropractic seriously... Non invasive treatments where you fake push stuff around is just..pushing stuff around...nothing is really happening just like nothing is really happening in chiro's research....there is nothing there....its empty
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #96 on Apr 11, 2011, 4:16pm »
Feel free to avoid answering my question on your ethics, AKdude. Cherry picking is a great way to avoid tough questions.
And chiroquit- MD's do that a lot. It's called off-labeling, and they do it with devices, procedures, drugs, you name it. But then here we are again- throwing another profession under the bus because we don't want to look at ourselves too critically. This isn't a discussion about them.
I understand the difficulty of attempting to put any manual approach thru the double blind wringer- from manip to massage to surgery there can be difficulties getting those to work (which begs the question about AK- that is easily applicable to the scientific method, and it has failed miserably... but I am guessing we will ignore that). Let's go with your anecdotal approach. If what chiro's did was so incredibly effective, so powerful, so life altering why are we only seeing 7% of the population, and that after heavy duty marketing and scare tactics? If you can cure GERD why don't you have a path beaten to your door? Difficulty: answer without bashing allopathic medicine.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,548 Location: USA
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #99 on Apr 11, 2011, 5:17pm »
>If what chiro's did was so incredibly effective, so powerful, so life altering why are we only seeing 7% of the population, and that after heavy duty marketing and scare tactics?
Argumentum ad populum fallacy drbacon. Phrenology and burning heretics was popular too. Does that mean headbumps determine your personality or that heretical behavior is due to demonic possession? Um hardly.
Also referring back to Nansel's article showing that DC observations of visceral disease are unreliable.
(Nansel D, Szlazak M (1995). "Somatic dysfunction and the phenomenon of visceral disease simulation: a probable explanation for the apparent effectiveness of somatic therapy in patients presumed to be suffering from true visceral disease". J Manipulative Physiol Ther 18 (6): 379–97.)
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #100 on Apr 11, 2011, 6:24pm »
I'm wondering where AKdude learned to pull the stomach back through the diaphram. Shouldn't the Boards be checking that DC are doing that correctly?
DrBacon, NAPP from the Chiroweb forum suggested that chiropractic be used "off label" for visceral conditions. Seems like she's trying to pull a fast one to me.
>If what chiro's did was so incredibly effective, so powerful, so life altering why are we only seeing 7% of the population, and that after heavy duty marketing and scare tactics?
Argumentum ad populum fallacy drbacon. Phrenology and burning heretics was popular too. Does that mean headbumps determine your personality or that heretical behavior is due to demonic possession? Um hardly.
Also referring back to Nansel's article showing that DC observations of visceral disease are unreliable.
(Nansel D, Szlazak M (1995). "Somatic dysfunction and the phenomenon of visceral disease simulation: a probable explanation for the apparent effectiveness of somatic therapy in patients presumed to be suffering from true visceral disease". J Manipulative Physiol Ther 18 (6): 379–97.)
Allen, can you imagine what a powerful website this would be if we were able to upload large documents? Chirotalk could become a repository/ library for lawmakers, the insurance industry, etc - anyone who wants to hold chiropractors accountable for their silliness.
One possibility is to get such a website and just attach this board to it.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #102 on Apr 11, 2011, 7:12pm »
Something that can't be stated enough is that in order to better understand these uniquely chiropractic points of view, it is essential to try to imagine putting yourself into that world for a moment. I think that one of the real distinguishing factors about being in chiropractic are the psychological forces that are at work. Those are also psychological forces that work on you, that do a real number on your life. Many people are drawn to this profession because of the way it makes them feel psychologically.
All of us who have been involved with this profession in any way can remember those psychological forces acting upon us. Many of those forces were trying to induce us to adopt irrational and socially manipulative ways of being. To be a chiropractor is to forever swim in this psychological soup, which has a unique flavor that permeates everything you do and everything you touch. Some people love the way that tastes, and others cannot stand it.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,548 Location: USA
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #103 on Apr 11, 2011, 8:57pm »
Nemo, we could try working with Quackwatch as they have server space. I game them all my Life University documents for their archive. In the meantime I've been using Adrive on the web for free links, the only problem is that they have to be renewed. I do think a dedicated website would be a great idea but with my chronic fatigue and lack of funding someone would have to take it on to make it happen.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
>If what chiro's did was so incredibly effective, so powerful, so life altering why are we only seeing 7% of the population, and that after heavy duty marketing and scare tactics?
Argumentum ad populum fallacy drbacon. Phrenology and burning heretics was popular too. Does that mean headbumps determine your personality or that heretical behavior is due to demonic possession? Um hardly.
I am rather thankful that we don't burn heretics anymore. I would be in big trouble.
Yes, it was a fallacious argument. Dumb, but that was the point- How can you argue for something that has no basis in fact without resorting to some anecdotal backup? I can't ask him to provide any proof, heaven's no, no point in that. So how else can we argue than in sparring fallacies?
And Chiroquit- I meant no disrespect. You are right, it's a moot point, but we are splitting hairs when we argue about which is worse, using unapproved therapies or using approved therapies for unapproved purposes.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,548 Location: USA
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #105 on Apr 11, 2011, 9:00pm »
It sounds like Anonymous mrsT. They use masks to prevent Scientology from filing frivolous lawsuits against them. Scientology declares anyone who publically acts against them a "suppressive person" and they have an anything goes policy about destroying them. They have broken into private buildings, set people up, made harassing phone calls, you name it. If the USA had any integrity we'd run them out of the country like Germany has done.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #106 on Apr 11, 2011, 9:25pm »
Thankyou AKdude for your responses.
I am glad you even took the time to do so. I am of course somewhat perplexed by a couple of them but perhaps you might help with some clarification:
Quote:
#1. Of course its important to help the patient understand their problem. This is good patient management and you can expect greater compliance and greater results.
I totally agree
Quote:
#2. This board expects proof of claims? Do you mean the double-blind, placebo controlled, randomly assigned "proof"? This may work for pills but it will never work for chiropractic. Ever. It can't be studied this way. Besides, if I KNOW how to fix a patient's hiatal hernia, and I KNOW it will correct their GERD, am I just supposed to sit on it until the official "proof" comes out 50 years from now? The proof is the consistent, repeatable results. And if everyone else waits 50 years for this "proof", I'll have already fixed thousands of cases by then. Makes no sense to me.
This subjective argument is two sided on it's own. You cannot "fix" what you cannot "diagnose" and I would ask if your patients had also been subject to a Prilosec commercial. The chances are fair to good but I can only surmise it to be so. I only have an average based on my assumption. I am not sure if chiropractic is tested on endoscopy or not. Not that one cannot make a presumptive assumption that the problem is GERD or GAS or something along those lines. What if something more were wrong?? Do you check stool at all? Do you ask about bleeding in the stool? What if you were wrong? For me the best known "definitive diagnosis" and causation lie with the use of endoscopy and is the best way I know of to properly identify any abnormalities that might have also been seen on x ray. Do you do a bernstien? What if it was negative?Or is the PH test enough to be definitive for you? But more importantly if the problem were chiropractic an MD would have referred it to you. Or do you diagnose this problem differently? Flouroscope and barium?? Or is it something else? I know it's long winded but sometimes people blow by these issues with no thought. Sometimes worse problems show up later ...would you notice if they did not come back?...
Quote:
#3. Problems in our profession. Of course. Am I buried in a mountain of debt? You better believe it. Is there an over saturation of chiropractors? Maybe. Depends upon your perception. Are there chiropractors who are overtreating? Engaging in unprofessional marketing practices? Committing insurance fraud? Inappropriately touching their patients? I'm sure there is. But I would bet that lawyers feel the same way. And veterinarians, some dentists, medical professions etc etc. No profession is without its share of problems.
This is a forum dedicated to chiropractic and presumptions on other professions are just that. Unless you have experienced this behaviour. That would indeed be different. Besides the two wrongs making it right etc... Keep your argument to chiropractic please.
Quote:
But its a challenge that if responded to appropriately, will make our profession better. If you respond to the challenge by practicing unethically, better watch out for the karma. If you respond to the challenge by being more creative, better trained, more dedicated, improved office procedures, improved treatments, improved doctor-patient interaction, and it makes you more competitive in the marketplace then the next guy, well, that's a very good thing. It's all about how you respond to the challenges (either negatively or positively). If you have to resort to unethical behavior to be "successful" in practice, better rethink things. Chiropractic as an art is solid. Its the people that practice it that make it problematic.
Yes I would agree that it is a problem with the people that practice it....This statement as written would though include yourself. Now, I'm under the impression you meant that you dislike some of the problems of those that practice a certain way. Are you aware of any? More imortantly do you allow them to continue to do so?
Quote:
At our chiropractic school, we had an AK practitioner that also was a professor. He got ran off our school due to politics, because he was not complying with the school's "science - based" approach. Funny thing, he is not accepting a new patient in his office for 5 years because he is booked solid. Booked for 5 years. As if there was nothing to learn from a chiropractor that is booked for 5 years.
What is it about bieng busy means doing medical good? Or does doing good mean bieng so good at medical deciet that you can do it without notice? You see your resonse leaves a lot of latitude for someone like myself to make a great deal of assumption.. .I'm confused by that stement in all honesty. It leaves too much ambiguity. I have been tainted..my apologies.
Quote:
There are ways in this profession to be successful and practice ethically. If you don't know how, then you must learn.
Now to me and perhaps I'm the only one, but this is the rose among the perverbial thorns. This indeed sounds like a great place to discuss the many options you know of AKdude, with some of the younger members of this board who would in fact be more than willing to enjoy the knowledge you have regarding practicing ethically and bieng successful.
In fact, I'm sure some of thier wives would be even more than happy to hear what you would share regarding this subject. Now keep in mind these are wives with kids to feed so the advice has to be sound. Not for me but for them. You give that kind of advice and you win. Seems everyone here would love nothing more. Write it out, we'll edit and it will be posted for all to see. Just tell me it does not involve applied kinesiology or such....
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #107 on Apr 11, 2011, 10:10pm »
Quote:
How can you argue for something that has no basis in fact without resorting to some anecdotal backup? I can't ask him to provide any proof, heaven's no, no point in that. So how else can we argue than in sparring fallacies?
I have to agree with this. I feel as though one could debate oneself in circles at times. The main points are not read by visitors and there are debates on "best practice".
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #108 on Apr 12, 2011, 10:28am »
This is good. I like this. I envision that this is how a counseling session is supposed to go, where simple comments release a flood of negative issues to the surface.
However, I am running into a problem. I have been accused of "cherry picking" my questions and arguments that have been presented. Since this particular thread is about how much new grads make, we are clearly off topic. Since my last post I have been asked to comment on:
1. Whats considered acceptable chiropractic research. 2. Medical physicians treating with techniques before it is "proven" 3. Why chiropractors are only seeing 7% of the population 4. Details surrounding correction of diaphragmatic hernia and GERD 5. Details surrounding diagnosis of subluxation using AK. 6. The use of AK and ethics. 7. Comments regarding the chiropractic profession's "financial instability" and "unsustainable chiropractic practices." 8. Comments regarding whether the results I obtain are the result of personality, physiotherapies or AK. 9. Comments regarding whether being busy means you are doing medical good 10. Ways to be successful in this profession while still practicing ethically.
Each of these issues is worthy of its own thread, at the very least. #10, for example, is worthy of textbooks. To comment one sentence for each of these issues will not give it considerable attention. However, I also don't want to be accused of "cherry picking" either. I am busy, so what's it gonna be?
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #109 on Apr 12, 2011, 11:02am »
Well, if you are busy then you are busy. Don't bother yourself with the forum if we ask too many questions, but you see when you write it down expect a comment from somebody on what you wrote. It is after all a public forum. Not all the questions will be those that you find easy to answer and no one says you have to. It's your choice. But be prepared to defend yourself if you do because this board has a lot of people with a lot of experience doing what you do. They will read it and comment on it. And you may or may not like what is written. Debate is like that. Just don't take it personally and don't get personal. But please feel free to engage and be engaged.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #110 on Apr 12, 2011, 11:06am »
"1. Whats considered acceptable chiropractic research."
I am prob the least educated on this particular question.....AKDude = I dropped out of school..... But my impression at my school was that there was next to no real research being done....The research that was presented looked like 7th grade science projects... All the research just looked like it had no money behind it, it was embarrrassing.
Also at our research day two former chiros who work at syracuse in now different fields basically called the research being done comical
again thats my only understanding of "chiropractic research"....Id like to hear more about your understandng of it...
But others may have better suggestions at what they want you to expand on and I would just defer to their request since my knowledge base on chiropractic is slim
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,548 Location: USA
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #111 on Apr 12, 2011, 11:27am »
>Ways to be successful in this profession while still practicing ethically.
I'd be interested to see if you can defend this topic after you've read the FAQs here in the welcome section. Despite the high brow attitude, so far your knowledge base is weak and I'm curious of your ability to objectively assimilate new information.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
>Ways to be successful in this profession while still practicing ethically.
I'd be interested to see if you can defend this topic after you've read the FAQs here in the welcome section. Despite the high brow attitude, so far your knowledge base is weak and I'm curious of your ability to objectively assimilate new information.
It is an interesting statement to say the least and I'm not holding my breath that anything earth shattering is put forth but I suppose that is up to AKdude.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #113 on Apr 12, 2011, 10:00pm »
Ok here's a bit of information for you that will help you decide what acceptable chiropractic research is. Examine more than one idea or hypothesis from different angles. If there's something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, (the hypothesis that resists disproof in this systematic selection among "multiple working hypotheses),has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
If something is untestable it is probably unusable or irrelevant. Explanations that include anything and everything, but, although consistent internally, cannot predict anything or be falsified by any future finding, are facile and vacuous e.g. The flying spaghetti monster made the world last Tuesday and made everything look as though it was older, including our memories. This idea cannot be falsified but does not prove the The flying spaghetti monster exists or that the worldview is correct as asserted.
You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and logic and see if they get the same result. In medicine experimental design is imperative to reduce the stunningly large effects of ascertainment, selection, measurement, observational, recall, publishing and a whole host of other fatal biases. The reliance on reason and carefully designed and controlled experiments or measurable predictions is the key.
AKdude wrote
Quote:
"2. Medical physicians treating with techniques before it is "proven"
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #114 on Apr 12, 2011, 10:49pm »
On second thought I think you are right AKdude, this thread entitled How much do New grads make (per hour)? is and should be related to that. So this should be relevant...
But on a serious note, I have been contemplating chiro school for the last year and made it my goal to talk to at leat 15 chiros. At the present time I have only talked to 10, but from those 10 most were telling me the same things I am reading on this forum: It is a profession where you will have to sell yourself to get patients and there is no guarantee that you will survive. All of them agreed that with the current price of school, everyone considering chiro should look into other careers. In addition, I asked many of them about their "cushy schedules" and they told me there hours only represent the time when they're seeing patients (the time that most of them like the most) and not the time when they're doing administrative work and advertising. All of them told me they work at least six days a week. So to anyone looking into chiro school, please visit numerous chiros and ask them about their profession. Just my two cents.
You do make it sound as though you understand that these are people and people have families. You represented earlier that you have the way to practice ethically and succesfully. They and quite honestly a whole lot of others it would seem would like to know what you are holding onto.
I fully understand threshholds in relation to volumes of people you would see..... and the costs incurred in office..... and the fact that there is overlap related to insurance disbursment...there are many many on the board who know the styles you would refer to related to adjustments or manipulations.... timelines.....there are many in offices now or who have run or been part of an office run clinic setting. Hell, I'm in the trenches currently ...have been a long time.....we'll make sense of it all together..and hey....why not.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #115 on Apr 13, 2011, 1:29am »
It really sucks that the Chiro profession is like this when I thought the only thing I can do now was Chiropractic school. But after knowing how bad the Chiro profession is from this forum I feel so discouraged about applying to Chiro school. I also realize most of the comments or criticisms are true and it is terrible to know what I might be doing in the future is total trash.
Chirotalk is like the FML site for Chiropractic students. I did learn alot, however, I don't know what to do now. For everyones information though, the only reason I am trying to find good things about Chiro why I would go to Chiro school despite knowing the dirty side of it is because of the following reasons: 1. I won't be jobless 2. Better than working at a fastfood chain ( I really don't think I can land other jobs) 3. I won't be taking loans since I have the money for Chiro school ( makes me want to ask you guys... would Chiro school be considerable if you didn't have to worry about the huge loans?) 4. I become a Chiro and although I know I am a quack and will be called one, I will be better off than nothing! ( I really don't trust myself that I can do other things)
So I guess rational is since I know the dirty, embrace it, suck it up, and live with it. FML FML FML at least you make some living. I am also surprised that my thread has the most replies in chirotalk forum history. It seems like I started a great debate.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #116 on Apr 13, 2011, 4:58am »
If you really do have enough money to pay for tuition, then why not start your own under the radar small business. Something that isn't necessarily high status, but serves an undermet need. This could be something like a house cleaning business, or a snack bar that specializes in cuban sandwiches in a high traffic area.
My point is that you should stop thinking of yourself as being a failure, simply because you have not reached what you would perceive as some high status position. Especially when doing so involves getting a diploma mill degree. The fact that you are where you are, and able to use your critical thinking skills to accomplish something positive puts you in a much better position that you realize. Please don't allow yourself to be manipulated by what others would have you think you should do with your life.
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #117 on Apr 13, 2011, 7:17am »
chirorookie said,"It really sucks that the Chiro profession is like this when I thought the only thing I can do now was Chiropractic school. But after knowing how bad the Chiro profession is from this forum I feel so discouraged about applying to Chiro school. I also realize most of the comments or criticisms are true and it is terrible to know what I might be doing in the future is total trash."
I hear ya! I am a chiropractor and I did take my time over ten years ago deciding that this was what I fit best in. I still feel like the general direction of chiropractic is what I fit best in, but not chiropractic as a profession. It has involved more sales and degrading practices than I ever thought I'd be exposed to and is generally not needed overall by the population.
I think you need to dissect what it is that you like about the thought of going into chiropractic and find something that you can get passionate about that doesn't involve pouring your good money into this worthless degree. Don't ever let yourself think that you'll be a respected doctor with this degree, you won't even want to call yourself doctor afterward without feeling like a sham. Do you like natural foods, promoting a better world to people, advocacy, starting a small business, health care (nursing, pa, md, ultrasound tech)?...see where else you could put your efforts rather than into this degree would be my two cents
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,548 Location: USA
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #118 on Apr 13, 2011, 7:41am »
chirorookie, I think you might benefit from some counseling to work on your self esteem and any other problems you might be facing. Just because life is hard doesn't mean you should give up and sell your soul to something you know to be wrong and evil. Why do chiropractic at all? You could work for a tobacco plant, at a casino or join the republican party and run for office if you want other forms of legally sanctioned evil.
But this is beyond the evil. By becoming a chiropractor you would be entering a declining profession with high risk. Don't let a false sense of invulnerability mislead you into thinking that you are superior to the masses who have come before you and failed. It isn't even like you are assured you would be a good quackery salesman. Having the objectivity to ask questions is already a major strike against you (which you will learn once you get exposed to pro-chiropractic instructors and field chiropractors). What happens to the people who go in knowing that it's quackery is that they usually attend a mixer school, learn more diagnosis so they can solicit medical referrals and better represent themselves in court and focus on low back pain and auto accidents. In this limited framework they function similar to what a doctor of physical therapy does. However if you went this route you would still find yourself having to use disproven manipulations, live among quacky colleagues and having to struggle to pay off your student loans (if you ever do).
Given that chiropractic keeps losing respect it is inevitable that science will eventually come up with newer treatments that are more effective at restoring spinal biomechanics. Orthican surely will testify to that. Look at how food biomechanical analysis alone has evolved.
You should read through Marty Nemko's website about careers. He lists chiropractic as a bad career for good reason.
There's a good book by M. Scott Peck called People of the Lie which discusses the problems of group and individual evil that I think you should read.
I hope that you don't choose to support evil with your student loans by attending chiropractic school. This is a big trap. Consider what happens once you join:
The chiropractic school uses your tuition money for admissions advertising to lure more students to the program. These students eventually have to lure even more patients to their offices to survive. As a graduate you will have to use the propaganda that you are taught and legally allowed to say to lie to prospective patients promising biomechanical corrections you can't deliver to overtreat them. Your success will be directly related to how well you can lie and convince them to believe you. Because you are practicing quackery you may hurt someone physically and financially you will be hurting the stockholders of insurance companies by raising premiums.
There is a better path out there for you. Just don't be too lazy to find it.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: How much do New grads make (per hour)? « Reply #119 on Apr 13, 2011, 9:07am »
chirorookie, if you feel fast food chains are all you can do you are likely incorrect. After all you were willing to go to school to be a chiropractor. This means that you believe you have the ability to learn. This is an important thing to remember. If you have that ability then there really is nothing you cannot pour your energies into that the return on investment will be considerably better. Allen has some good suggestions there.
If you have the money in the bank to do schooling of this nature like you say you do I find it difficult to imagine you would blow it all to end up in the same place with the same feelings in five years with the only difference bieng that you are broke and wishing you had the money back.....
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And no, actually I think having people see the level of frustration that one such as yourself experiences with all this is a good thing for more than just as it presents on the surface. ![[avatar]](http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/800/strawberry-poison-dart-frog.jpg "[avatar]")
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by a couple of them but perhaps you might help with some clarification:
or something along those lines. What if something more were wrong?? Do you check stool at all? Do you ask about bleeding in the stool? What if you were wrong? For me the best known "definitive diagnosis" and causation lie with the use of endoscopy and is the best way I know of to properly identify any abnormalities that might have also been seen on x ray. Do you do a bernstien? What if it was negative?Or is the PH test enough to be definitive for you? But more importantly if the problem were chiropractic an MD would have referred it to you. Or do you diagnose this problem differently? Flouroscope and barium?? Or is it something else? I know it's long winded but sometimes people blow by these issues with no thought. Sometimes worse problems show up later ...would you notice if they did not come back?...
