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![[poll]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/poll_icon.gif) Poll | Poll Question: Audiologist or Chiropractor |
Poll Options:
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| | Audiologist |   ![]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/poll_right.gif) (4 votes, 66.6%) | | Chiropractor | (2 votes, 33.3%) |
Poll Totals:
| | Total Votes: 6
Total Voters: 6 |
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 Author | Topic: Career Question (Read 1,092 times) |
blackrebel88
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|  | Career Question
« Thread Started on Oct 22, 2009, 11:23pm » | |
Alright so i just got full ride to OSU and I'm trying to decide between a Bachelor Degree in Communication Science and Disorders and Nutrition/Exercise. One will lead me to be a Doctor of Audiology, the Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine. I like both professions as they both help people on personal levels and i have shadowed Audiologist on a few occasions. Not any chiropractors though as none seem to be to willing to let me shadow. Looking for solid advice here making a decision for my future?
Thank You
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Nemo
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #1 on Oct 22, 2009, 11:57pm » | |
In the name of all that is Good, do not go to chiropractic school.
Just get the thought of it out of your mind right now. Turn your back on the idea completely....do not talk to chiropractors....do not visit their websites...forget that they exist.
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bigcic
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #2 on Oct 23, 2009, 8:59am » | |
Hello Rebel88,
It sounds like you are on your way to a good career. Please do not mess this many years of schooling and money and then go down the road of Chiropractic. This field is not going in the right direction. You are getting a good degree and will make good money but if you go down the chiro route you will have a high probability of losing it all. I am not just saying this to be neg. Just being real. I was a chiro for 15 years and had my student loan paid off working for the underserved. Once loans got paid off got the hell out. I was very unhappy in this wasted field. I did make good money but was unhappy. The insurance world is changing and the Gov is changing so please spare yourself a possible letdown.
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #3 on Oct 23, 2009, 10:12am » | |
The fact that the DCs don't want to let you shadow is interesting. They obviously don't feel good about their profession. When I was considering going to school to be an anesthesiology assistant the Director of Anesthesia (an MD) had no problem letting me shadow in several surgeries.
It sounds like you need to find out more about yourself and the careers you're considering. Chiropractic is essentially the selling of quackery as codified by state law. Schools indoctrinate students in it just like cults do, and DCs become very disillusioned after graduating to find that there is little legitimate demand. To be successful they have to latch on to various scams because there is so little demand for the narrow scope of manipulation that they can provide. The two most popular scams are subluxation maintenance (keep you coming back forever) and personal injury care. We have numerous threads here exploring these issues and you can also visit Chirobase.org to read good articles on the subject. Be very leery of information from "official" sources which are often provided by industry trade groups or the colleges themselves.
The reason this site and its members are so outspoken are because we were once where you are and we were misled by the chiropractic colleges and subsequently lost years of our lives chasing lies. The colleges are protected by a loose regulatory system and corrupt accreditor so the scam against prospective students continues. Until we can end the scam, we exist to warn people before they fall into the trap
Career counselors can be useful if you have access to them. Get tested to see what your interests and skills are. Then shadow and learn each profession thorougly. Once you can see yourself happy in a field then you'll know which way to go.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
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-W. Edwards Deming
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docm
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #4 on Oct 23, 2009, 12:22pm » | |
DO NOT BECOME A CHIROPRACTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU WILL BE SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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blackrebel88
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #5 on Oct 23, 2009, 9:17pm » | |
The insurance world is changing and the Gov is changing so please spare yourself a possible letdown. Will this apply to all Healthcare fields should i not even do Audiology? 
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redy2movon
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #6 on Oct 24, 2009, 6:26pm » | |
Oct 23, 2009, 9:17pm, blackrebel88 wrote:| The insurance world is changing and the Gov is changing so please spare yourself a possible letdown. Will this apply to all Healthcare fields should i not even do Audiology? |
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yes the changes in insurance and managed care impact all healthcare fields. however fields other than chiropractic have one thing chiro doesnt: a legitimate market for their services. therefore, become an audiologist, P.T. R.N. etc can all be very rewarding and satisfying careers.
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Feb 25, 2009, 4:08pm, dantes wrote: Stupid me didn't realize that chiropractic was wacky as well as cracky and quacky
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andreadc
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #7 on Oct 25, 2009, 1:38pm » | |
blackrebel88,
i am recent chiro school graduate (about a year and a half ago). here is what i have found....i am working in my 3rd associate position since i graduated. i have not been happy in any of them including now. anyone that you work for wants you to work long hours for very little compensation, plus the fact that you have no credibility among other healthcare professionals.
any chiros that tell you they are making lots of money are practicing unethically. the ones that do practice ethically do not last long because they don't make any money.
i have a problem with the fact that nothing that chiropractors do has any scientific evidence to back it up. what chiro schools tell you to get you to go to their school and take their money is a bunch of crap.
my advice would be to be an audiologist or whatever else interests you and forget chiro school. i am currently trying to get out of the profession for good by trying to go to pa school. i'm not trying to be negative, b/c if that is what you really want to go, by all means, go for it, but i just thought its only fair i tell you about my experiences being a recent graduate.
good luck!
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #8 on Oct 25, 2009, 5:39pm » | |
If you don't love audiology then don't go into it. Life is too short to waste chasing a paycheck. Find what you would like to do and go for it. You can always settle later.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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ebenezer
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #9 on Oct 26, 2009, 8:54pm » | |
Full ride to OSU? Sounds smart.
Why not make some really smart decisions now, like forgetting the chiro idea.
Why not take a trip out to Utah and follow me around a day and see how a hospital based physician assistant lives. I work interventional radiology, but if you don't care for that there is trauma service, cardiology, nephrology, orthopedics and a half dozen others only a staircase away and they wouldn't mind letting you come learn a little of what it's all about.
just don't do chiro.
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bobaboey
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #10 on Oct 27, 2009, 5:05pm » | |
Visit as many professions as you can to fully make up your mind. Do some research on each profession. I would not use Chirobase.org as a true source for information, it is biased and mostly written by a retired psychiatrist. Try to figure out what is the true cost of school vs. the real salary you can expect. The one main problem with chiropractic is that no chiropractors agree on anything.
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #11 on Oct 27, 2009, 9:24pm » | |
I disagree with boey's blanket condemnations of chiropractic critics. Chirobase.org has good quality articles and has won many awards (visit their site to view) from many different individuals. I myself am a chiropractor who has written four articles there. One must be very careful about the information one trusts since many pro-chiropractic individuals are so heavily biased that they completely ignore any information that contradicts their position. Chiropractic is usually the foxes guarding the hen house where the foxes like to argue that only the foxes are qualified to criticize them. It just isn't true. Chiropractic just isn't proven enough for it to be taken seriously as a science.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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blackrebel88
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #12 on Oct 27, 2009, 11:07pm » | |
Oct 26, 2009, 8:54pm, ebenezer wrote:Full ride to OSU? Sounds smart.
Why not make some really smart decisions now, like forgetting the chiro idea.
Why not take a trip out to Utah and follow me around a day and see how a hospital based physician assistant lives. I work interventional radiology, but if you don't care for that there is trauma service, cardiology, nephrology, orthopedics and a half dozen others only a staircase away and they wouldn't mind letting you come learn a little of what it's all about.
just don't do chiro. |
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I would take you up on your offer but i live in Oklahoma and have no funds to travel to Utah, unless you buy me a plane ticket lol on serious note though my best friend is going to school to be a PA and keeps trying to talk me into it. haven't really given much thought though
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chirosa
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #13 on Oct 29, 2009, 2:57pm » | |
Firstly, both sound like excellent career choices.
I too find it odd that the chiro's youve spoken with wont let you shadow them. My father and I run a practice in South Africa and have prospective students in on an almost weekly basis. I have been in practice for 5 years and i dont feel i have anything to hide from students. I happily tell them that if money is their main goal to go and find another career, chiropractic is a profession in which you have to be passionate about people, if you just want their money youre gonna tank. My career in chiro has kept me in a comfortable lifestyle which is above average but im not driving around in a ferrari.
Keep in mind, these guys would tell you to go chicken farming if you gave it as an alternative to chiro. I would however caution you to make sure you know what youre getting into. If you want to be in chiropractic because you want to "cure" diabetes, cancer or chicken pox think again, chiropractic is for musculo-skeletal conditions and i promise you there are more than enough of those around to earn a living without scamming people.
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #14 on Oct 29, 2009, 3:07pm » | |
http://www.gatewaytovermont.com/thefarm/chickens.htm
"Chickens have got to be the easiest, most forgiving, creatures for a small farm to manage..."
![[image]](http://www.gatewaytovermont.com/images/chickens/usandchickens.JPG)
At least if your chicken farm goes bust you can bankrupt any debt and eat the chickens. Not so chiropractic, your $100k student loans will haunt you forever. And the two surveys of the field show 50% of DCs quit in 5 years of practice.
It's really a lot safer to invest the money in a Subway if you want to be an entrepreneur.
http://www.subway.com/subwayroot/development/
http://www.franchisedirect.com/top100globalfranchises/rankings/
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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chirosa
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #15 on Oct 29, 2009, 3:15pm » | |
i love the dogs, just waiting for the people to leave so they can have at those juicy chicks!
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jessica123
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #16 on Nov 2, 2009, 1:22am » | |
so, according to the above argument chiropractic is not good as a profession, but why is that the the only people that are not successful labeling chiropractic as a bad profession.
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mrst4765
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #17 on Nov 2, 2009, 7:42am » | |
Maybe they saw the truth of the situation & are willing to speak up. This is a SKEPTICAL chiro discussion group!
Some of us see some merit in chiro, but realize the profession is fraught with problems.
Another thing is that the schools are promising jobs & lots of money, but the jobs just aren't there.
In any business, you need to market, but look at the marketing in chiro. They are always coming up with new gimmicks to sell a product that doesn't deliver! That's why they do all that. If the product were better, the marketing would be more logical.
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NOTE: I AM NOT A CHIROPRACTOR BUT I HAVE BEEN A CHIROPRACTIC PATIENT
Chiropractic: Not all it's "cracked up" to be! |
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #18 on Nov 2, 2009, 10:49am » | |
>so, according to the above argument chiropractic is not good as a profession, but why is that the the only people that are not successful labeling chiropractic as a bad profession.
Jessica,
It's hard to understand your question. Is it, "Are the only people who label chiropractic a bad profession chiropractors who couldn't earn a good living at it?" While there is a huge number of people who indeed can't earn a good living at it (surveys show 50% of new DCs quit in 5 years), there are also those who ethically refuse to because they consider it to be an unethical system that misleads people and can harm them. So criticism of the field is not just "sour grapes."
Visit Chirobase.org and you'll find scores of articles with successful chirpractors, medical doctors, patients harmed by adjustments and even instructors at chiropractic schools criticizing the field. The only people who say that all critics are failures are chiropractors who can't argue from the evidence because they know we speak the truth and use evidence while their statements are just propaganda. Moreover, those jerks mislead others by calling ethical former chiropractors, business failures, and refusing to tell others they they simply refuse to practice out of concern for the patients.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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chirosa
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #19 on Nov 2, 2009, 12:07pm » | |
It would be interesting to find out how many chiros quit because of ethical reasons and how many were the result of failed businesses.
Im sure, as in most, professions, its the latter. When your business fails it is only natural to look for reasoning behind it.
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #20 on Nov 2, 2009, 4:15pm » | |
Aside from Chirotalk, I've never seen anyone mention that chiropractic is so limited that it can't meet its stated goal of providing any biomechanical correction. Even the reformist group, National Association for Chiropractic Medicine, held out the Motion Palpation theory of increasing range of motion as its reason for being. Since chiropractic schools use false science to indoctrinate students with the idea that they still accomplish either this or some other correction, for someone to figure it out they would have to be faced with contradictory experiences plus have access to comprehensible knowledge. Once they have the experiences we (Chirotalk) can get them the knowledge.
It's an interesting question which group would be greater. Even more interesting will be to see if the ethical renouncement group increases over time. I count myself as an ethical renouncer because I gave up my licenses before starting my own practice.
It's amazing that Chirotalk has been around a few years and we haven't budged on this one point while no official chiropractic organizations or colleges have acknowledged it. This is not for lack of trying. I have thrown down the gauntlet here and emailed NACM personally to no avail. I guess nobody wants to commit chiropractic suicide except the FCER.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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alibaba
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #21 on Nov 2, 2009, 4:56pm » | |
Chirosa - I think I would have to disagree with you. I dont know about the chiropractic experience/education, but in Canada we were taught the "orthopedic" approach as opposed to the "subluxation" approach. This said, how are muscle strains, disc herniations, bursitis, basically all musculoskeletal ailments save "mechanical joint" pain amenable to adjustments? We see these people every day and how, ethically, are you able to treat them? For me, it is ethical as to why I am trying to get out of this profession - non finances. But because the financial part is good it will be a couple of years before I kiss this career goodbye. Just out of curiosity, I can't imagine your medical profession has much time for chiropractic, based on all the south african family docs in my town?
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #22 on Nov 2, 2009, 5:50pm » | |
alibaba,
Are orthopedists now only using manipulation for joint pain? I thought they used a Motion Palpation type model of restriction too.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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lifestudent20
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #23 on Nov 9, 2009, 8:35pm » | |
"And the two surveys of the field show 50% of DCs quit in 5 years of practice"- AJ Botnick
I am curious to know the source of these surveys you have quoted in this post. That is quite an impressive statistic and if it is true i don't see how any chiro schools are keeping their doors open right now!
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #24 on Nov 9, 2009, 10:49pm » | |
Lifestu,
We did a poll here at Chirotalk and NACM's Dr. Ron Slaughter DC did one back in the 1980s, both came up with similar numbers. Actually Chirotalk's survey was more recent and showed a greater number of DCs quitting. So it appears to be getting worse, which is what you would expect given the lack of increasing demand combined with increasing numbers of DCs. This is why salaries are down. Here's a link:
http://chirotalk.proboards.com/index.cgi....ead=1765&page=1
Chiro schools keep their doors open by understating loan defaults because the official calculation ignores defaults of consolidated loans.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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TEO
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #25 on Nov 10, 2009, 12:25pm » | |
Nov 9, 2009, 10:49pm, Doctor Botnick wrote:| We did a poll here at Chirotalk and NACM's Dr. Ron Slaughter DC did one back in the 1980s, both came up with similar numbers. |
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I'm wondering if you would also be surprised to find that in any given roomful of Pro-Lifers, for example, the likelihood of finding women who had an abortion might decrease when compared with a population of all women in the U.S. who were randomly selected to participate in a survey. Something about a "selection bias." Similarly, you might expect that percentage to increase in any group of women who advocate for "Choice" ... at least if you were to compare this to a group of Pro-Life women surveyed.
Do you suppose there's anything about the attitude or relationship the women in each of these groups have to getting an abortion that might influence or even predict the results of your survey? It's not even worth the time or trouble to ask these groups unless you're looking specifically at the question of whether or not the attitudes and relationship to the issue of abortion in these respective groups might or might not influence an abortion rate.
In other words, if you really wanted to obtain data on the percentage of women in the US who had an "abortion" would you head over to the "National Right To Life" headquarters and pass out your questionnaire? Or would you think that your data might be skewed if you did this? Yet, without even a word or reservation, you head over to the NACM and chirotalk headquarters to obtain data on how much money chiropractors are making and what percentage of chiropractors are leaving the profession.
You are KIDDING, right? 
Quote:| Actually Chirotalk's survey was more recent and showed a greater number of DCs quitting. So it appears to be getting worse, which is what you would expect given the lack of increasing demand combined with increasing numbers of DCs. This is why salaries are down. |
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So, you would put a lot of stock in the survey of some women who belong to the National Right To Life about the number of abortions had by their membership such that you would draw conclusions (never mind say the first thing) about which way the number of abortions are trending in the U.S. Similarly, you're going to rely (even a little bit) on answers from some NACM members and a few "chirotalkers" to make statements about how much money chiropractors are making in the United States and/or the percentage of chiropractors who leave the profession.
You are KIDDING, right?
Listen. I have no idea what percentage of chiropractors leave the profession after any amount of time. You might be able to make some inferences or speculate about why the loan failure rate is so high for chiropractors, but these would be inferences and speculation at best. In any case, the last people I'd ask (never mind the first) about the percentage of all chiropractors leaving the profession for any number of reasons would be the NACM or chirotalkers ... not only because these cohorts represent only a tiny fraction of all chiropractors but especially if we remember the selection bias inherent in the so called "results" to questions -- like the percentage of these chiropractors leaving the profession-- answers we'd expect to be influenced by the relationship these particular chiropractors have to all or part of the whole chiropractic enterprise.
~TEO.
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A J Botnick DC
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #26 on Nov 10, 2009, 9:06pm » | |
>I'm wondering if you would also be surprised to find that in any given roomful of Pro-Lifers, for example, the likelihood of finding women who had an abortion might decrease when compared with a population of all women in the U.S. who were randomly selected to participate in a survey.
So basically you're saying in a really asinine way that you feel the Chirotalk survey exaggerates the number of chiropractors who left the field. Well yes we did ban a good deal of them for violating terms of service. And we did encourage people to leave the field, however 60% is a really high number. Even if you reduced it by 2/3 so it was just 20% that is a huge attrition rate. So essentially the number is high enough to overcome the dilution effect.
Yes a better survey could be done if we had the money but it isn't available.
But my main concerns about chiropractic are that it doesn't work and that it lies to patients. Attrition and even salaries were never my reason for leaving the field. Chiropractic just can't fulfill it's stated mission of fixing spines. If it can't do that then it shouldn't exist as a profession.
On the other hand, if you want to go run a better study on this to achieve you PhC in chiropractic philosophy, smirk, by all means go do it.
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"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
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presto
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #27 on Nov 11, 2009, 6:28pm » | |
I think that a part of your bias is the thrill you seem to get over anything that might seem to indicate the upcoming demise or decline of this profession. I don't believe that one man's wish to see the chiropractic enterprise fail will have any significant impact on the outcome.
Quote: Chiropractic just can't fulfill it's stated mission of fixing spines. If it can't do that then it shouldn't exist as a profession.
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You could just as easily turn that around and say that one of the main reasons that Chiropractic has come this far is that it really doesn't work (at fixing spines). Because nothing definite is arrived at through the application of chiropractic, it becomes easier to fool people into buying into longterm chiropractic ideas such as "wellness". The idealism and optimism in chiropractic is so appealing to some (Chiropractors and their customers) that it manages to fill some void, some perceived need that isn't being met elsewhere. Even though the science isn't there to back up what is being claimed. There's still enough people who are completely invested in this (chiropractors) and satisfied customers to keep the ball rolling at least a little while longer.
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touchiba
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| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #28 on Nov 24, 2009, 5:47pm » | |
blackrebel,
I don't know where you live, but I'd be more than happy to let you shadow me : ) It's not an easy decision (career choices), so explore all of your options. Chiropractic is not for everyone. It is harder to establish yourself than other professions where you can just go work for someone. Associate jobs are not always the greatest, but if you look, you can find a situation that works for you.
My best friend in chiro school sent out dozens of letters to chiropractors in the state and region he wanted to practice. He let them know he is moving to the area and he wants to buy a practice, associate, or associate with intentions of buying out. Out of the dozens he sent (maybe he sent closer to 100), he received a dozen of replies. He narrowed it down the three and spent a week with each. Eventually he chose a practice where he could associate for 6 months and then buy. The practice was well established, he had a long transition, and he is doing very well for himself 4-5 years later.
Yeah, it took some work, but it paid off. I'm not sure what the experiences of others on this board has been. Could they have done the same thing and have it work for them? I dont know.
Out of the classmates I knew best in chiro college, all are still practicing and doing well. One or two had a bad associate position before moving on to a better situation, but other than that, the others are plugging along with no problems.
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blackrebel88
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Posts: 6
| | Re: Career Question
« Reply #29 on Nov 24, 2009, 11:29pm » | |
touchiba post has made my choice even tougher showing thats chiropractor can be successful, my whole reason for this post was to get some honest answers which i have gotten on both sides. MY final question why do chiropractors have such high default rates on loans? i know alot of chiropractors are doing well, via im done the research on medical practice buying sites and majority of practices are taking home as much as doctors and that's net income.
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