Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #90 on Sept 6, 2009, 5:38pm »
"Im sorry, I was under the impression that this was a forum for open discussion. I thought you encourage freedom of speech and opinions from all. "
I believe all are welcome to discuss and debate ISSUES on chiropractic, not to go after individuals' MOTIVES or agenda. Having read your four posts so far, I have yet to see any issues discussed in them. I don't think anyone here question that occasionally chiros can help people. In fact most here consider chiros to be back specialists. It's all these other unsubstantiated claims to treat other diseases that people have problems with chiros.
If all a guy knows is to change oil for cars, would you consider him a mechanic, or simply an oil-changing guy. The problem I have with chiros is that it tries to claim to be a medical profession but in fact it has very little to do with science or medicine.... at least as little as an oil-changing guy knows how a car engine works.
For the record, I am not a chiro, but I do have a Ph.D. in molecular virology. I believe in scientific, logical approach to medicine. I also strongly believe in the importance of double blind clinical trials to prove or disprove any medical claims.
So there you have it. Now you are more than welcome to raise questions, provide answers, debate or discuss any issues pertaining to chiropractic.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 5,896 Location: USA
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #91 on Sept 6, 2009, 9:46pm »
>Im sorry, I was under the impression that this was a forum for open discussion. I thought you encourage freedom of speech and opinions from all.
The objective of this board is to seek truth and knowledge by allowing people to investigate chiropractic topics through the presentation of strong evidence and likewise the exposure of weak evidence.
Regarding ad hominem fallacies, they are abusive and not tolerated. As the saying goes, your right to throw a punch ends where my nose begins.
If you think you can participate in a civil manner you are free to do so. If not then feel free to find a board more aligned with your conversational style.
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..." -Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data" -W. Edwards Deming
Yeah right. The man who singlehandedly killed SubluxationBearPig is a loser.
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 200
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #92 on Sept 7, 2009, 7:17am »
lyuen - I wouldn't go so far as to consider chiropractors back specialists. After all, how many back specialists don't know where the spinal cord ends and the cauda equina begins? There are practicing chiropractors right now that don't know this.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #93 on Sept 7, 2009, 8:52am »
"I wouldn't go so far as to consider chiropractors back specialists. "
I called chiros back specialists due to my understanding that that's all they are supposedly qualified to do. The same reason I would call the oil-changing guy an oil-changing specialist. That doesn't mean that they are the only people qualified to perform the job.
As for those chiros who lack basic knowledge on the spinal cord, I think that reflects on the quality of the chiro education the students receive. I had gone through graduate school taking many of the advanced courses in biology and biochemistry, and believe me many "A" students have to struggle. I wonder what exactly do they teach students in chiro schools when it comes to some of these common courses. In fact I still wonder why chiro schools even pretend to offer students these science courses when chiropractic itself doesn't even believe in science.
I called chiros back specialists due to my understanding that that's all they are supposedly qualified to do. The same reason I would call the oil-changing guy an oil-changing specialist. That doesn't mean that they are the only people qualified to perform the job.
I think that your perception of chiropractors as being "back specialists" is an understandable conclusion to come to. It certainly rhymes well with the baseline portrait that an outsider/layperson would have formed while growing up and being exposed to secondary sources of information such as television, newspaper etc. That is, without ever meeting and speaking with chiropractor first hand, or going within 50 feet of his office. That is of course with the exception of picking up your take-out chinese food order from that restaurant in the mini mall located right next door from a chiropractor .
Generally speaking, it's only the chiropractors themselves and their supporters, who seek to present a bigger picture, describe a "Big Idea" of what chiropractic is. If you've never spent much time around them, then there isn't any real incentive to look any deeper into what's actually been going on in chiropractic.
I would say "back specialists" would sound appropriate in the sense that it is universally understood that this is the anatomical area that chiropractors focus on.
If you try to look at the issue more closely (generally, you wouldn't be motivated to do so) you would realize that the word "specialist" might not have the same equivalency that an orthodox medical specialist would. At the level of the chiropractor's education and training, you would find that the actual substance that is meant to make up their expertise and methods lends more towards vagueness and confusion than it does to describing a clear cut discipline. It is this, in fact, that permits the chiropractor to instead make up their own definition of chiropractic. For example, why stop at "back specialists" when we as chiropractors can offer so much more. Yes, we are actually "Doctors of the Nervous System", since we work at restoring the flow of nervous information and the prevention of disease.
As you see, once the chiropractor has decided to expand their scope by boasting that chiropractic is actually much more than it has ever been proven to be scientifically, that's the moment you clearly know that they've lost the plot. Yet what you may not realize is that this particular chiropractor graduated from Life University in Georgia. And if you could look at a survey of what they had been exposed to in school, you would actually recognize that the most dubious claims that they are promoting were in fact a core part of the curriculum at that school. Also, this particular school has graduated the largest number of DCs over the past 20 years or so. So difficult to underestimate the influence that they have had on the profession at large.
Yeah right. The man who singlehandedly killed SubluxationBearPig is a loser.
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 200
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #95 on Sept 7, 2009, 10:00am »
I should have been more clear. When I think of a specialist, what comes to mind is someone who has studied and has an extensive amount of experience and knowledge in a certain area so as to say that they are an expert in that subject. As Presto said, from an outside perception, chiropractic does seem like it is a back specialist profession because that is what they are perceived to focus on. Coming from chiropractic school, and having practiced for a number of years and interacted with a wide variety of chiropractors, I can attest that they are not experts. In fact, I have met several that do not even know basic concepts of spinal anatomy. Example, some think of the nucleus pulposus as like a little marble that rolls around inside of the disc. Most do not keep up on current medical research either. Their CEU's consist of having signing in to a weekend seminar, then sneaking out early.
That being said, there are some chiropractors out there that I would consider back specialists. These chiropractors do keep up on medical research and learn all that latest in physical therapy procedures. Of course, they are not typical chiropractors, nor are they doing chiropractic at this point.
"One who condones evils is just as guiltyas the ones who perpetuate it." Martin Luther King, Jr.
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 540
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #96 on Sept 7, 2009, 10:19am »
[quote author=lyuen board=In fact I still wonder why chiro schools even pretend to offer students these science courses when chiropractic itself doesn't even believe in science.[/quote]
Lyuen...Maybe it's because they want to APPEAR to be something they are not? Remember, Chiropractic is founded on a false claim, an unscientific claim, a claim regarding what they would have the world to believe causes disease. So if they have been informed that their claim is unscientific and yet they continue to insist it is why not provide quasi science curriculum?
"One who condones evils is just as guiltyas the ones who perpetuate it." Martin Luther King, Jr.
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 540
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #97 on Sept 7, 2009, 11:15am »
We have seen the pole where we are asked if we would ever return to chiropractic if in so doing we would be earning a salary of $150,000?
We are given various conditions and we are asked to check off the conditions that would have to be met before we would do so.
My questions is...Why is there is no option to vote no?
Personally I would never return.
So I have voted "NO"and maybe Alan will include that question in the pole?
While my name here is Goodview, my name is Bill Reinholt and for those who would like to contact me personally...here is my address...wlreinholt@msn.com
My questions is...Why is there is no option to vote no?
If you think about the options in that poll, and take into account the sarcastic tone, you'll probably realize that the last three choices equal your option to vote no.
That's because it's safe to assume that:
"Only if reformed to eliminate unethical practices" = impossible, will never happen
"Only if reformed to enlarge scope" = meaning extras like prescription rights. Impossible, would go against the founding principles of the profession.
"Only with additional educational training" = There is no such thing as additional training that would remedy what's lacking from the chiropractic foundation. Unless you are talking about retraining for an entirely different career.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #99 on Sept 10, 2009, 11:16pm »
i think the questionnaire implies that I have left the profession. I have not. I practice in Alberta, Canada, and rarely have seen any sort of quackery in chiropractic practice. I would encourage my colleagues in this forum to report all violators of proper chiropractic scope of practice, etc., to their regional registrar. In our province, and in my country, strict adherence to a proper scope of practice is an absolute necessity. No 'quack' of any sort would hild a license for over a year in our area.
I encourage my chiropractic colleagues to return to the profession at an administrative level and to work towards achieving this order in their principalities.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #101 on Sept 12, 2009, 12:32pm »
I, too, think there needs to be a "no" option. The lack of one implies that there is no one with a conviction strong enough that he couldn't be bought off. We left because chiropractic is wrong. There is nothing that will make it right. When you leave chiropractic you realize and have to accept that your DC degree is worthless. And your 20 years in practice is a qualification for absolutely zero. Go ahead and try to get a job based on that! Everyone who claims that there are a bunch of chiros out there who are ethical yet successful are deluded. There are very nice people I care about who are still in the profession and seem to be ethical but are using AK, the very quackery that got me interested in becoming a chiro in the first place. It is not ethical to use AK to convince someone they have to have treatment. Period. One more realization that I have had which makes me very sad. I have never in all 30 years since I first went to a chiropractor, through all the different chiropractors, all the schooling, all the seminars, all the gurus, all the friends who were chiropractors, I have never ever been helped by chiropractic. It turns out I didn't have a subluxation after all.
"One who condones evils is just as guiltyas the ones who perpetuate it." Martin Luther King, Jr.
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 540
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #102 on Sept 12, 2009, 3:05pm »
jack...very well put. If you allow this definition of chiropractic... to be what you see chiro to be...location and correction of subluxations to remove interference to the normal function of the nervous system and by so doing restoring health...to be scientifically untrue...which it is... and for those who practice this way, though they are practicing by the law, though they are practicing legally they are in fact perpetuating a lie and furthering a fradulaent claim...if this is where you are coming from...you will always be able to see where the truth of your position is correct and the truth of their position is incorrect because of the foundational error of chiropractic and the unscientific basis upon which it is based.
When you leave chiropractic you realize and have to accept that your DC degree is worthless. And your 20 years in practice is a qualification for absolutely zero. Go ahead and try to get a job based on that!
This realization also means that you've found a new orientation. Distinct from the one which you held previously, while you were still actively working within a chiropractic centered framework.
A set of behavioral patterns, focused around supporting chiropractic, was cultivated out of necessity while we were first becoming chiropractors. Some adopt this outlook more naturally than others, and are able to hold onto, and remain faithful to it.
Others, never really took the chiropractic approach to living very seriously in the first place. A broader approach, a Bigger Idea, a deeper meaning to chiropractic, you say? I honestly can't say I follow, or understand. For us, it was a very simple choice to quit this profession altogether.
Quote:
Everyone who claims that there are a bunch of chiros out there who are ethical yet successful are deluded. There are very nice people I care about who are still in the profession and seem to be ethical but are using AK, the very quackery that got me interested in becoming a chiro in the first place. It is not ethical to use AK to convince someone they have to have treatment. Period.
The fact is that there is not one single relationship which has not been compromised in some essential way, with the people from our chiropractic pasts. These relationships cannot ever be fully repaired or restored to what they once were. What they once represented to us. That's because your own chiropractic context has been lost.
The key is to realize that this is in fact a good thing. A healthy thing. There is nothing to regret about it. Leaving all of that in the past is the best way to move forward.
Imagine this: You decided to forward the link to this post to everyone on your email list, with the message: "Hey folks, check out what I just posted on chirotalk!"
How would these nice people you care about feel if they were able to read what you just wrote, and realize that it was you who wrote it? I would bet that many of them would be say they feel disappointed. "I'm sorry that you feel this way. I too once had doubts, but once I attended this seminar, or read this book, I was finally able to figure it all out".
Quote:
One more realization that I have had which makes me very sad. I have never in all 30 years since I first went to a chiropractor, through all the different chiropractors, all the schooling, all the seminars, all the gurus, all the friends who were chiropractors, I have never ever been helped by chiropractic. It turns out I didn't have a subluxation after all.
The more specific your own health problems were, the less likely it could be that a solution would result from non-specific manipulative therapy.
Posted under the username: the dc sexperience. Sounds like someone needs to go through boundaries training.
(Okay, I know what DCS is supposed to stand for, but allruntogether that's what it sounds like.)
I watched those YOU TUBE recordings also...are you asking a question?
As a side comment...these are recordings of the LIE being sold...to any who will buy (believe) Gibson is a long time wheeler and dealer.
These individuals scare me...for those of you who want what these guys have...and there are those who want to be like these guys...who care not that what they offer cannot be proven; is based on unscientific claims; metaphysical over Christian beliefs...for those who accept Christian beliefs as the truth regarding God who they refer to as Universal Intelligence...many here see the unscientific component of the lie but think that is all the LIE they are selling...but for those such as myself and others who look to the Bible as the Word of God...they are selling a belief in God that is not from His Word. They are being led to believe that what they are doing is right and good and they are the saviors of man... Why you who post hear...most if not all have somehow not been attracted...but for those who have...they will eventually reject science and the Bible.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #107 on Nov 7, 2009, 11:14pm »
I really doubt that anyone in here posting negative things about chiropractic and other forms of natural healing has really ever been in pain and been through the process of going to neurologist after neurologist trying to figure out why there head hurt everyday and why there shouders and neck were so stiff trying to lift there hands above there neck were next to inpossible. I have gone to many well accredited hospitals and doctors and they simple told me nothing is wrong with you.. you are simply making all of this up. maybe you should go and see someone you can talk to and figure out what is really going on, and I did that too. what most people don't realize is that chiropractic is a second treatment option for them, and that they already have seen many doctors to try and figure out what is causing all of there pain. Maybe instead of talking about the $30 that a chiropractic visit costs we should go into how big of a rip off seeing a doctor is.. For simply going in a having a family physician refer you to see a doctor that supposably is more compitent you are looking at least $250, and thats for doing absolutely nothing. Maybe all of the people posting in here and are so dedicated to this site can explain why even though there xrays are normal, they are in pain. There is a reason. And it is not do to the lack of narcotics in the body. Most MDs are simpley symptom treaters. They don't really cure anything rather cover up potentially dangerous conditions. This is what I know... After seeing a NUCCA chiropractor and having my atlas adjusted all of those symptoms went away. I don't know why but they did. So for me NUCCA Chiro. was well, maybe a miracle.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #108 on Nov 8, 2009, 9:08am »
when I was 18 I was cured of lifelong headaches, by a DC. I had seen every specialist available, and I mean every. Cardiologist,neurosurgeon,neurologist,allergist to name just a few. My dad was a pharmacist so he knew a LOT of doctors. I suffered and suffered. Then came the DC.
Headaches gone. Forever. I decided to be a DC. It was the worst decision I EVER MADE, and yes I had a miracle cure.
The business model is not viable. Even a massage therapist can crack your back and she can even tell you to take an advil. I can crack your back and not tell you take an advil. What a f*cking joke.
When I was in ottowa on seminar I went to one of those "special" massage places where the finish was the semi hot chick KY and a rubber glove. During the opening part the massage was rubbing cracking my back and my neck > I was so surprised and it happend so fast I didn't even have time to say anything. When I realized that she gave me an adjustment worthy of any DC I had ever been to I was even more surprised.
Even a f*cking hooker can crack your neck right before she strokes your balls. All for $50 C. and she can tell you to take an advil.
You going to spend $120,000 on an education that a hooker can do jus as well as you and not be as limited? yeah right. Good luck with that. You will either lie to people and tell them they need services they really don't need, or you will fail in business. Period there aren't any other options.
SORRY but you will find my words to be entirely true.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #110 on Nov 8, 2009, 10:15pm »
there's alot of mexican bone setters where im from. actually they are my #1 competitors. i say competitors because they can do the same job i can. i remember a patient telling me that why did he have to come in 3 times a week for a month when he can have his neighbor crack his back and fix him up in one visit. and another patient saying that his friend only charges a 6 pack of beer for a fast neck crack. $125k down the drain.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #112 on Nov 17, 2009, 4:26pm »
There is a problem with the chiropractic profession. On one hand there is the group that are wanna-be medical doctors and on the other is the group that say "Subluxations kill". I graduated chiropractic school about 5 years ago and have thankfully enjoyed my own success without the need from any wacky "coaching" guru. I chose DC school over MD school, Dental school and law school, because I believed in the chiropractic philosophy. I went to school to learn how to locate subluxations and not diagnose everything....that's for the medical community. The patients at our office receive low-impact adjustments and lifestyle advice (we put together fitness programs and simple nutritional recommendations). The bottom line is they are healthier leaving our office than when they presented. Isn't that the goal of true health care? Many patients are "thankful" for the time we spend with them and have no problem referring their friends or family. Nothing is jammed down their throats! It has also been my experience that those in need of coaching or are quick to point out the flaws of our profession should never have even entered this profession. The part I enjoy most about this profession is the relationship our office has with the many family practioners, physical therapists and neurologists. We have one goal when working with patients and that is to get them healthy and these professional relationships with the medical community were formed by simply asking them if they would like to attend a "professionals only" explanation of chiropractic. By the way folks, our profession isn't the only one with professional coaching. Dentists, cash only medical facilities, and acupuncture all have professional coaching. Why? Working with people is the fun thing and most interesting. The business end of things is where most practices struggle. Coaching, at the very minimum, helps to keep the business end of things running smoothly.
"One who condones evils is just as guiltyas the ones who perpetuate it." Martin Luther King, Jr.
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 540
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #113 on Nov 20, 2009, 9:30am »
dax says..."I chose DC school over MD school, Dental school and law school, because I believed in the chiropractic philosophy."
dax...in reading your post you seem to be doing well and happy being a chiro? You chose chiro because you did believe at the time and still believe in the chiro philosophy and that is why you became one. You could have gotten into medical school, dental school or law school but you didn't, you chose a career in chiro. Your academic background was not a factor or would not have kept you from these other professions you mentioned? Is that right?
There is a problem with the chiropractic profession. On one hand there is the group that are wanna-be medical doctors and on the other is the group that say "Subluxations kill". I graduated chiropractic school about 5 years ago and have thankfully enjoyed my own success without the need from any wacky "coaching" guru. I chose DC school over MD school, Dental school and law school, because I believed in the chiropractic philosophy. I went to school to learn how to locate subluxations and not diagnose everything....that's for the medical community. The patients at our office receive low-impact adjustments and lifestyle advice (we put together fitness programs and simple nutritional recommendations). The bottom line is they are healthier leaving our office than when they presented. Isn't that the goal of true health care? Many patients are "thankful" for the time we spend with them and have no problem referring their friends or family. Nothing is jammed down their throats! It has also been my experience that those in need of coaching or are quick to point out the flaws of our profession should never have even entered this profession. The part I enjoy most about this profession is the relationship our office has with the many family practioners, physical therapists and neurologists. We have one goal when working with patients and that is to get them healthy and these professional relationships with the medical community were formed by simply asking them if they would like to attend a "professionals only" explanation of chiropractic. By the way folks, our profession isn't the only one with professional coaching. Dentists, cash only medical facilities, and acupuncture all have professional coaching. Why? Working with people is the fun thing and most interesting. The business end of things is where most practices struggle. Coaching, at the very minimum, helps to keep the business end of things running smoothly.
let me get this straight... you tell medical professionals at your "professional only explanation of chiropractic" that you as a chiropractor locate and eliminate subluxations? where does the conversation go when they tell you they dont believe in subluxations, at least the type of make-believe subluxations you are referring to?
« Last Edit: Nov 21, 2009, 11:46pm by redy2movon »
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 5,896 Location: USA
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #115 on Nov 22, 2009, 9:54am »
> I went to school to learn how to locate subluxations and not diagnose everything....that's for the medical community.
Did you go to Life University? They promoted the idea that DCs don't have to diagnose and this was the reason they lost accredation in 2001 by CCE. This was Sid Williams' Dynamic Essentials chiropractic diagnosis scam. The scary thing is that he knew it injured people but taught it anyway while misrepresenting it to students as being superior to real differential diangosis. Due to the large numbers of Life University graduates, 10% of all chiropractors are harming patients by using it. Maybe you are one of them.
The low force adjustments probably avoid stroke risk but by not diagnosing you're still putting patients at risk for delayed diagnosis, misdiagnosis, delayed treatment, premature treatment and inappropriate treatment. Further, differential diagnosis is mandated by insurance carriers and the federal government. Your testimony as an expert witness in federal court is invalid if you don't diagnose accurately. In California if you knowingly submit an insurance claim and you don't diagnose it constitutes the felony of insurance fraud.
If it ever gets out that you realized that you were not taught accurate diagnosis you are looking at jail time. This discussion thread could be used as evidence against you. Be careful.
You can't trust Life University to give you truthful information.
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..." -Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data" -W. Edwards Deming
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #116 on Nov 27, 2009, 12:43pm »
Life did promote not diagnosing specific diseases, but they absolutely taught to recognize red flags and "when in doubt, refer out". PTs and other non-MDs are taught this as well. A PT is not going to diagnose a disc herniation, but if recognizes there is something that is there that has not yet been diagnosed, will refer the patient to an MD.
That's not to say there weren't chiropractors out there that said not to even examine a patient, just find and adjust subluxations. I'll agree with you there, they are dangerous.
Re: Would you ever return to chiropractic practice « Reply #118 on Dec 10, 2009, 11:10am »
I am new to this discussion board and since this is my first post here is my 2 cents. Currently I practice as a chiropractor and I have always had a 2nd job--thank goodness! I went into this profession to help people with pain and because of my interest in natural healing. However, after graduating with my degree, I soon realized that my profession was not about helping people but was about how much money you could make by trying to bring patients into your office that didn't have a darn thing wrong with them! I went to many continuing education seminars that were going to teach me new techniques to help my patients, but the bottom line for almost all of them was "how to make more money by keeping people coming back." I do not practice this way and never have. I do understand why most of the seminars are geared toward making money--because after you get out of school you have tons on loans to pay back! If I had life to do over, I would have never have become a chiropractor. There are many other professions to go into and if the job was worth $150,000, I still would would not suggest to any of my fellow chiros to go back into the profession. Crack nuts for a career instead!(pun intended)
![[Home]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif)
![[Help]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif)
![[Search]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif)
![[Login]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif)
![[Register]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif)
![[Live Chat]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/menu/chat.gif)
![[Search This Thread]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/search2.gif)
![[Send Topic To Friend]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/sendtopic.gif)
![[Print]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif)
![[poll]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/poll_icon.gif){kind=icon}
Poll
![]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/poll_right.gif)
(0 votes, 0%)
Author
Logged
![[avatar]](http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/800/strawberry-poison-dart-frog.jpg)
![[homepage]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif)
![[avatar]](http://suitablyflip.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/manbearpig.jpg)
. ![[avatar]](http://www.ccffm.net/nerd4.jpg)
