|
 Author | Topic: Weighting action versus inaction (Read 2,170 times) |
drj
Senior Member
member is offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Gender: Male 
Posts: 1,092
|  | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #60 on Mar 28, 2007, 7:22pm » | |
conspiracy says, "...my son was vaccinated for something unnecessarily (Hep B)"
Only if he never comes into contact with an infected child. Sharing drinking cups, sharing toys which have been contaminated by saliva and blood, play ground injuries etc.
I hope he never does, but you'll never know. Rest easy.
Most chiros have never seen patients suffering from liver disease. Indeed, most chiros graduate from chiro college without ever seeing sick patients, period. Just another reason to avoid chiro college.
|
Any fool can go through life without offending people.
|
|
drryan
New Member
BANNED!
member is offline
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #61 on Feb 15, 2008, 9:08pm » | |
JAMA just published a article that the adjustment is so safe they concluded that it was uncalculatable! CDC says that medicine kills over 1,000,000 a year and just look at all of the shootings - every one of them on antidepressents!
| |
|
drj
Senior Member
member is offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,092
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #62 on Feb 15, 2008, 9:27pm » | |
ryan said, "......just look at all of the shootings - every one of them on antidepressents!"
Seems to me the shooters were OFF their medicine.
ryan....you're just another chiropractor attempting to justify chiropractic by bashing medicine.
When chiros start treating serious illnesses, you let me know. Until then, stop being silly.
|
Any fool can go through life without offending people.
|
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/800/strawberry-poison-dart-frog.jpg)
![[homepage]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif)
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #63 on Feb 15, 2008, 9:53pm » | |
Funny thing is that the news said the shooter was off medication at the time he acted. Time to take off the rose colored glasses buddy.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
dantes
Junior Member
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://suitablyflip.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/manbearpig.jpg)
Yeah right. The man who singlehandedly killed SubluxationBearPig is a loser.
Joined: Feb 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 200
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #64 on Feb 15, 2008, 9:56pm » | |
"The risks of chiropractic manipulation are significantly less than this risk. Therefore I have said that manipulations ARE NOT as dangerous as vaccines, and because fewer people get adjusted on a regular basis than get vaccines...we are extremely safe and effective at treating what we treat."
The risks are a lot closer than conspiricy thinks, and, vaccinations are a public health issue, not a personal "Whatever, I do what I want!" issue. In areas where the anti-vaccination craze hits. Where sheep stop vaccinating their kids in larger numbers, the danger of the same diseases that are NOT vaccinated for goes up in everyone. Even the vaccinated kids. So the "doctor" ICPA, are advocating policies that endanger the rest of us and our children.
|
Chiropractic is all that its quacked up to be. |
|
jonathanhughes
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 33
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #65 on Dec 22, 2008, 9:11pm » | |
which types of chiropractic are you against?
are you aware that there is more than one type?
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #66 on Dec 23, 2008, 8:26pm » | |
Big question. How about any chiropractor claiming that manipulation or adjustment can make lasting correction to biomechanical misalignments or fixations of the spine.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
jonathanhughes
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 33
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #67 on Dec 24, 2008, 10:44pm » | |
Action is better. You can have an underlying problem due to imbalances to the spine. This is what is causing a person to have uneven leg lengths. A young persons disks will be thicker, but will wear down faster than necessary by reason of that imbalance causing pain and other problems later on in life that to many people think is normal and it can prevented. An upper cervical specific care doctor has that has scientific instrumentation can use it to determine if the person has an imbalances ,and to objectively gauge if another adjustment is absolutely necessary or not., as to adjust to soon makes the spine weaker.
Any one should have objective scientific instrumentation to objectively gauge improvement. Use x rays. Adjust vertebra at top of cervical spine. No twisting of the neck. Cavitations of the joints do not adjust anything. You want a correction of a subluxation, not cavitations. You cannot rely on how feel after an adjustment because, for many it took you a while to get in the debilitating condition to begin with. Cervical doctor should be able to untwist, untilt, and position the atlas so that it is level and centered, and in a neutral position under the foramen magnum. If the energy is not flowing past the atlas Unimpeded into body function will be compromised to the body in same percentage that the nerve s flow of energy is impeded. The cellular function of the brain will likewise be affected in the same percentage. And body and brain both will get imperceptibly worse at the same rate over time. Brain and nervous health are intrinsically connected, just like the heart and circulatory system are connected. In other words when the atlas is not in the correct position at the top of the spine it acts like a log jam to the nerve energy getting to the body. The tilting and twisting of this top vertebra causes the rest to shift according to how much the atlas has shifted, tilted, and twisted. an inversion table will not change the position of an atlas that is subluxated. go to www.upcspine.com and find a practitioner everyone should be checked no mater what anyone thinks they have ,or do not have. Prevention is best , and paying attention to, have I taken a fall? Did I hit my head? Was I tackled in foot ball? Did my vision blur for a split second when a car bumped in to your car while you where in it?? Did I run in to a light post? . Did someone run in to me? These are some of the things you have to think about before you contemplate having your self checked by an upper cervical specific only care doctor. Even after you have a normalized spinal health from comprehensive care from their comprehensive care. Try and have someone go with you and have the cervical doctor teach you how to do a leg check. Sliding back and lying on a bench lower leg half way on the bench is a good way to do this feet relaxed nothing in back pockets lightly press on souls of feet taking tilt of ankles to put bottoms of shoes parallel to one another. Sight the difference between the two. And monitor this from day to day to see if there are any changes to the better or worse or stagnation. The last two is a good indication your spine mat need some cervical doctors help at that point to further improve your overall health.
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #68 on Dec 28, 2008, 2:00pm » | |
Lawman,
It's impossible to do a double blind study on manual techniques because a doctor would know whether or not he delivered the procedure. That would be a single blind study where perhaps the patient didn't know but given joint cavitation it's hard to pull that off.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
susan30813
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Gender: Female 
Posts: 18
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #69 on Jan 1, 2009, 9:29am » | |
As a statistician, I cannot understand why, if chiropractic has 'cured' so many diseases, there are no meaningful studies available. I have been given literature that has multiple pages of verbiage trumpeting chiros success in treating various disease. The 'evidence' usually consists of one or two patients who might or might not have had a disease and tends to read more like some sort of radical fundamental religion tract than a medical report.
I have been told that our friendly local chiro can not only cure incurable disease (and reverse the effects of aging?), but that he has no need of x-rays or lab work prior to working his magic. This is just insulting to anyone who is willing to be logical.
If a patient of any healthcare professional feels 'left in the dark' the patient should either ask questions or find another practitioner. I have never heard a medical doctor say anything about chiro other than 'that is outside my area' or something of that nature - they don't try to practice chiro, why must so many chiros try to practice medicine? I have yet to run into a group of rabid members of the AMA who are almost violently anti-chiro. Why does it seem that many chiro's spend so much time and energy warning the public against any treatment that is NOT chiro?
I would be willing to picket a certain local clinic, until such time as that is possible, I just refer people to this site!
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #70 on Jan 1, 2009, 9:44am » | |
Susan,
Astute observation there about chiropractic's similarity with religion. D.D. Palmer, the founder of the field, actually wrote that he wished to see it turned into a religion so that practitioners could avoid being arrested for practicing without a medical license (this was before licensing). Anyway, the most common methods are biomechanically unsound and research shows this so chiropractors stick to general outcome measures and avoid quanitification of specific changes. Luckily for them, just cracking necks and backs has some therapeutic effects.
As far as dabbling in medical advice, a big part of selling chiropractic is to convince patients that medicine is flawed and chiropractic is the answer. Students are subjected to this early in chiropractic school and are essentially indoctrinated with poor reasoning skills and a heavy anti-medical/anti-science bias.
Unfortunately, chiropractic exists in the alternative spectrum without conclusive research showing necessity. Until this exists, practitioners have to oversell their services to survive.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
Nemo
Senior Member
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://www.ccffm.net/nerd4.jpg)
The brutal scrutiny of the FCLB/NBCE
Joined: May 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,181
Location: CA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #71 on Jan 1, 2009, 6:21pm » | |
Quote:| have been told that our friendly local chiro can not only cure incurable disease (and reverse the effects of aging?), but that he has no need of x-rays or lab work prior to working his magic. This is just insulting to anyone who is willing to be logical. |
|
Your "local chiro" is precisely who James Winterstein et. al wishes to place in a primary care setting......Your "local chiro" could just as likely have been one of those glorious DCs participating in the priimary care study mentioned in an earlier post.
|
Chiropractic is as close as you can get to actually living in a cartoon. |
|
Nemo
Senior Member
member is offline
The brutal scrutiny of the FCLB/NBCE
Joined: May 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,181
Location: CA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #72 on Jan 1, 2009, 6:22pm » | |
Feb 15, 2008, 9:08pm, drryan wrote:| JAMA just published a article that the adjustment is so safe they concluded that it was uncalculatable! CDC says that medicine kills over 1,000,000 a year and just look at all of the shootings - every one of them on antidepressents! |
|
On second thought, just make dr ryan your primary care provider.
|
Chiropractic is as close as you can get to actually living in a cartoon. |
|
susan30813
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 18
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #73 on Jan 2, 2009, 12:06am » | |
Jan 1, 2009, 6:22pm, Nemo wrote:
Feb 15, 2008, 9:08pm, drryan wrote:| JAMA just published a article that the adjustment is so safe they concluded that it was uncalculatable! CDC says that medicine kills over 1,000,000 a year and just look at all of the shootings - every one of them on antidepressents! |
|
On second thought, just make dr ryan your primary care provider. |
|
I have always thought it was disease (dis-ease) that killed people, either disease or that unfortunate side effect of living which is death. 
This board never fails to cheer me up. Please rest assured that should I wake up tomorrow in perfect health, I will make sure that Chirotalk receives full credit. We could start a new chapter in chiro history - a cure effected without a single adjustment!
| |
|
susan30813
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 18
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #74 on Jan 2, 2009, 12:29am » | |
Jan 1, 2009, 9:44am, A J Botnick DC wrote:Susan,
Astute observation there about chiropractic's similarity with religion. D.D. Palmer, the founder of the field, actually wrote that he wished to see it turned into a religion so that practitioners could avoid being arrested for practicing without a medical license (this was before licensing). Anyway, the most common methods are biomechanically unsound and research shows this so chiropractors stick to general outcome measures and avoid quanitification of specific changes. Luckily for them, just cracking necks and backs has some therapeutic effects.
As far as dabbling in medical advice, a big part of selling chiropractic is to convince patients that medicine is flawed and chiropractic is the answer. Students are subjected to this early in chiropractic school and are essentially indoctrinated with poor reasoning skills and a heavy anti-medical/anti-science bias.
Unfortunately, chiropractic exists in the alternative spectrum without conclusive research showing necessity. Until this exists, practitioners have to oversell their services to survive. |
|
The battle between chiropractic and 'traditional medicine' seems to have a great deal in common with the conflict in the Middle East (the religious one, not the oil one  ). My father taught me at a young age that there is no real profit in trying to reason with a fanatic, and that if one attempts to argue with an idiot one runs the risk of compounding the problem: ie two idiots arguing ad infinitum.
Surgeons used to also barber (or vice versa). I guess every one must start somewhere.
I would have much preferred to age in a more normal fashion; I become hypersensitive when a healthcare practitioner not only assumes I am ignorant, but lacks the compassion to cease his unsolicited efforts to heal me. It tends to become a 'blame the victim' cycle. If the patient is not healed or cured, it must be the patients lack of faith in the chiropractic treatment. At least, this is how my local friendly chirofanatic DC has explained it to me.
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #75 on Jan 2, 2009, 11:21am » | |
> It tends to become a 'blame the victim' cycle. If the patient is not healed or cured, it must be the patients lack of faith in the chiropractic treatment.
Yes it's a convenient excuse you hear all the time. It serves to scapegoat blame for an ineffective treatment away from the treatment. But it's not just lack of faith, you also hear that symptoms don't matter (only life force young Jedi), that the patient didn't go regularly enough, wasn't treated from birth or didn't go to the right chiropractor.
For practitioners we can get blamed rather than chiropractic for being supposedly bad manipulators or for not having enough belief in chiropractic also.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
Magumba
Junior Member
member is offline
Chiropractors can't count.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 227
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #76 on Jan 2, 2009, 7:15pm » | |
Allen, this is the crux of my chiro 'failure'.
I didn't get all these great results I heard about so I bought and bought more equipment/programs to improve that situation. The results never got better. My wallet just got thinner.
| |
|
susan30813
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 18
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #77 on Jan 4, 2009, 9:01pm » | |
Jan 2, 2009, 7:15pm, Magumba wrote:Allen, this is the crux of my chiro 'failure'.
I didn't get all these great results I heard about so I bought and bought more equipment/programs to improve that situation. The results never got better. My wallet just got thinner.
|
|
Wow. This could have been a statement made by a patient! I have an exercise routine I follow (daily when possible). My regimen was put together with the help of my D.O. and P.T. My husband (who visits his chiro weekly) seems to feel his health would improve if he could have some of the chiro stuff here at home (inversion boots, pneumatic table, etc. etc. etc.) I keep forgetting to tell him that alot of so called equipment has been prescribed by my physician (meaning health ins. would pay) - I just refuse to have my home turned into a gymnasium!
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #78 on Jan 5, 2009, 8:28am » | |
>I didn't get all these great results I heard about so I bought and bought more equipment/programs to improve that situation. The results never got better. My wallet just got thinner.
We all have that problem Magumba because the majority of the techniques aren't biomechanically valid and treatments are unproven and experimental. Patient response is up to chance. This is well known and verified by research.
Students should not be tricked into chiropractic by telling them that the treatments are more proven than they actually are.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
jonathanhughes
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 33
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #79 on Nov 3, 2009, 4:13pm » | |
Duff Method is an excellent way of measuring changes. Sherman College is the place to learn this. Your shoulders, and hips can be measured in degrees of tilt Combine it with the use of the infrared scanner, and you have a real good combination. Measurements are called constants.wavy line taken from the infrared scanner is superimposed on a graph representing the 24 vertebra. minute changes can be seen doing it this way. This can help to determine if another adjustment is needed or not. Adjustments do not hurt. You may feel shifting going on in the body afterward. The body is re balancing.
Post x rays can be taken too. Base posterior A—p open mouth, nasium, lateral, and sometimes vertex can be used instead of base posterior. My cervical doctor that uses the Duff method. Can show you in precise degrees what the changes are in rotation tilt, and shifting of the atlas from the center line beneath the foreman magnum, the center of the base of the skull.
Atlas orthogonal is good to in measuring too. Other technique names can be found on www.upcspine. Knee chest is good too.
| |
|
jonathanhughes
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 33
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #80 on Nov 3, 2009, 4:21pm » | |
X rays have to be taken to see the precisely the amount of misalignment there is to know how much force and in what direction to apply that force. This is to help to be more consistent in the adjustments that are taking place.
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #81 on Nov 3, 2009, 4:34pm » | |
Donald Harrison PhD DC criticized upper cervical method for not taking into account xray distortion. That is just one of the criticisms levelled at it. I still believe it isn't biomechanically accurate.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
jonathanhughes
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 33
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #82 on Nov 3, 2009, 4:50pm » | |
I would not call it a conspiracy I would call it fact. Vaccines are directly responsible for a deadly condition called vaccinosis.Anti venom, and antibiotics have there place. from what I have studied so far.Anti biotics have been over used.
| |
|
A J Botnick DC
Administrator
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,896
Location: USA
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #83 on Nov 3, 2009, 7:05pm » | |
Dr. Hughes, you keep making questionable statements. This is not Vaccine-talk. For any more statements make sure you either cite sources or do not present it as anything more than your opinion.
|
"I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction..."
-Dalai Lama
"In God we trust, all others bring data"
-W. Edwards Deming
|
|
rankola
New Member
member is offline
Joined: Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 33
| | Re: Weighting action versus inaction
« Reply #84 on Nov 9, 2009, 10:58pm » | |
vaccinosis...how funny is that? I just googled it and came across many tidbits of information regarding to vaccinosis...as it pertains to pets--the top 7 results. There is an article on PubMed, but it was sourced from Homeopathy magazine...and we all know the validity of homeopathy, don't we?
| |
|
|
![[Home]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif)
![[Help]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif)
![[Search]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif)
![[Login]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif)
![[Register]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif)
![[Live Chat]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/chat.gif)
![[Search This Thread]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/search2.gif)
![[Send Topic To Friend]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/buttons/sendtopic.gif)
![[Print]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif)
Logged