Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 532 Location: No B.S. Reality
Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Thread Started on Jul 5, 2007, 2:17pm »
Intent Of This Thread: To show people that are contemplating chiropractic as career to look at the numerical facts regarding earning potential first, before making any final decisions.
This has been done in a rational, logical, and realistic manner. Please read this thread slowly or stop…take a breath…then backtrack as needed.
(Click here) so you can see the numbers by Environics Research before proceeding.
I broke down the research-backed numbers in calculating a rough but accurate mathematical analysis of how much chiropractors earn per year minus typical living expenses along with pertinent comments. There are, of course, many factors that make the numbers higher is some instances and lower in others, please take that into consideration... including debt service for school loans. Again, I’m not trying to overestimate / underestimate, pad or manipulate the numbers, just average them.
Let’s begin with a town of 20,000 people and calculate the percentages based upon Environics findings:
9,400 people have never used chiropractic and never will - in their entire lives (Warning bells should be going off right now!)
2,600 people are former users and will never use it again
2,800 people use it 5 times or less per year and go less often (Declining users)
3,400 people only used it 1 or 2 times in their lives (Occasional users)
1,000 people are Regular users
The average number of chiropractic visits per year by a regular users is 12 - according to the American Chiropractic Association. Over the years, I’ve read that number to realistically be 8-10 visits. That being said, I didn’t include any Declining users in this exercise. Also, it’s obvious that Occasional user statistics are negligible.
Observe that 1,000 regular users multiplied by 12 visits per year / per person equal 12,000 visits per year for the town. Again, 12 visits per year/per person is very generous.
Okay….That’s 12,000 visits for the entire town which is then multiplied by an average collected charge of $70 per visit. The 1st visit charge, x-rays, therapy, and rehab are all averaged into the $70 charge. I’ve attempted to average the amount of money insurance companies are going to deny and cap payment of your full fee price. If you bill (What you ask for) manipulation, heat, and electrical muscle stimulation the actual charge is closer to $130. However, what you really collect (What you get) is more like $70. This is explained in a second.
Oh…by the way…This exercise assumes a 100% collection ratio on account receivables. In real life it’s 80% or lower, much lower; in other words: You will never fully collect the amount you bill insurance companies, ever.
This is true even for states that have coveted no-fault (Personal Injury Protection or PIP) auto insurance benefits. Only 13 states are fortunate enough to have it. Once Florida’s PIP status expires on October 1, 2007 the remaining states will probably follow.
Let me explain…If you charge the insurance company $65 for a chiropractic manipulation and nothing else, they know the average price for the same manipulation performed by another chiropractor in your town is much lower, let’s say $52. They arrive at this number by calling every office in town and finding out what their fees are then calculate an average. Again…this will bring your $65 fee down to $52 immediately; and that’s the new starting point for this exercise…$52.
Next, the insurance company chop’s a percentage off that - Why? - Because it’s part of the agreement they have with their policy holder (your patient) and any doctor (maybe you) that attempts to exercise benefits from that policy. So your original $65 fee, for a manipulation only, gets chopped down to $52, then for examples sake, gets chopped to $45.
Do You See That?….a 31% fee reduction, your fee. Mathematically you must perform more manipulations to make up for the 31% reduction….more work, more marketing, more overhead, more stress, more new patients just to break even at the end of the day.
Think about this….Imagine mowing your neighbor’s yard for an agreed upon $30, then knocking on his door to collect it and $21 is handed to you….standing there puzzled – you accept it, you’re forced too…then walk away pissed. This is how the world of health care insurance works.
”Well What About a Cash Practice?”….The notion of a cash-based practice doesn’t exist….it never has…regardless of what any practicing chiropractor in the field tells you. Quite simply, it’s a ‘knee-jerk’ reaction by chiropractors to compensate for the fact that insurance companies are slowly and successfully eliminating the ability to get paid.
In response to this dilemma a myriad of dubious chiropractic consulting firms have sprung up propagating and profiting from seminars on the ‘secrets’ of having ‘successful’ cash practice. This is typically done by sales of long term, unnecessary, non-symptomatic pre-packed treatment plans to unsuspecting patients by the use of scare tactics….meaning YOU must SELL these plans to YOUR patients by SCARING them.
Just Remember This: Billing and collecting benefits from your patient’s health care or auto mobile insurance policy is the main way you will make money.
Refocusing..… 12,000 visits per year multiplied by $70 equal $840,000 of gross chiropractic services for the entire town for 1 year. Yes, I said the entire town per year.
How many chiropractors practice in the town?
Let’s say there are 12 chiropractors in town that contain our sample population of 20,000 people equals a conservative 1 DC for every 1667 people (20,000 people divided by 12 DC’s = 1667 or 1:1667 ratio), this is reasonable number.
My first practice was in a town with an unheard of ratio of 1 DC for every 450 people. That’s a horrible number and a reason I left. I’ve also calculated towns within 200 miles of mine, with a 1 DC to 4500 patients (1:4500). That’s fantastic, very little competition. Also, you can extrapolate my (1:1667) ratio to a town of 100,000 people and get a very conservative 60 practicing chiropractors for that town. I’ve seen towns with much less than 100,000 people containing 70 to 110 DC’s, that’s financial suicide. I don’t know what they’re living on but it ain’t chiropractic services. Another interesting twist: The lower the ratio is for your town the higher your chances are in becoming involved with unethical and illegal business practices, just to survive.
I currently live in a town of 23,000 people. Number of chiropractors here = 12 (23,000 divided by 12 equals 1916 or 1:1916). Every town that I travel through I simply open the phone book, count the number of practicing DC’s and divide it by the population count. Try it! Get your phone book and calculate your town’s ratio.
Okay…The $840,000 above is divided by 12 DC’s equals $70,000 per office – GROSS.
By the way, that $70,000 figure gets chipped away every day. It’s going down slowly and discreetly. How? By the greed of multi-billion dollar insurance companies. They have become extremely savvy and sophisticated in the realm of tightening expenses and increasing the bottom line for their stock holders. This is old news. What do the headlines say regarding insurance company profits? Stellar.
Moving on….The average chiropractic office overhead is 50%, which is fantastic. You’ll find it nearly impossible in today’s environment to get it lower than 50%. Most small businesses run at 75% and higher.
Taking the $70,000 office gross with an average 50% overhead equals $35,000 on the table - GROSS.
$35,000 minus a 15% tax bracket (this is conservative, or a fantasy. It’s most likely in the 20% or higher bracket) equals $29,750 after tax-money in your pocket to spend - NET.
That’s $29,750 in your pocket….after paying Uncle Sam.
“WAIT A MINUTE!!”…….you say…”That number is wrong!”...“The Bureau of Labor Statistics says median annual earnings of salaried chiropractors was $65,220 (GROSS) in 2006 and the middle 50 percent earned between $45,710 and $96,500 (GROSS) a year.” [1]
The average income generated per year by a chiropractor provided to you by the Bureau of Labors Statistics, quite frankly…is wrong. They get their information from national chiropractic associations (ACA, ICA, WCA etc.) These associations must inflate the amount chiropractors earn so people exploring the possibility of becoming a DC won’t be turned off by how little they actually make. Thus, if they scare off tens of thousands of potential DC’s per year their eventual membership, down the line, will decline. Membership dues are the primary method these organizations pay their office expenses, staff, pay lobbyists, supply the top executives with fat bonuses and bottom line…make money…ultimately, like every business, to profit. In theory, it’s in their best interest to make sure the marketplace is flooded with chiropractors so they will, in turn, pay yearly membership dues. The majority of chiropractors don’t belong to national associations anyway so it’s a flawed theory.
Let’s calculate Income again in Summary form:
20,000 town population at 5% chiropractic usage = 1,000 regular users
1,000 regular users multiplied by an average of 12 visits = 12,000 visits per town per year
12,000 visits per town multiplied by $70 average office visit equals = $840,000 total chiropractic dollars generated per town - gross
$840,000 divided by an average of 12 DC’s per town = $70,000 gross income per office
$70,000 minus 50% overhead = $35,000 on-the-table net income for you
$35,000 minus 15% tax bracket = $29,750 net take-home net income for you, per year!
- breaking that down further -
$29,750 take-home divided by 12 months per year equals $2,479 per month
$2,479 per month divided by 4.3 weeks per month equals $576 per week
$576 per week divided by 5 days per week equals $115 per day
$115 per day divided 8 hours per day equals $14.40 per hour
(That’s it! You must work 52 weeks – 5 days per week to make the full $29,750K– no retirement, medical insurance, vacation, holidays, or sick days off)
“WAIT A MINUTE!!”.....you say…..“How is that possible? $14.40 per hour? A manager at McDonald’s makes that much. This is a bunch of B.S. because my hometown chiropractor has a decent car, house, and kids”……
There is a something called Pareto’s Principle, also known as the ‘80/20 rule’. It means 80 percent of something controls 20 percent something else and vise versa. [2]
Looking into this further, it means that only a couple of DC’s in town earn the bulk of the money generated (the few splitting 80% of the money) while the rest of the DC’s fight like rats over the rest (the many splitting 20% of the money).
A clearer explanation is that chiropractors making the bulk of money have been practicing since the 1980’s (also called: The Mercedes 80’s). During the 80’s there were practically no deductibles on insurance policies, no cut-offs of any kind, no co-pays, no credentialing for provider books, and most importantly no competition from other chiropractors. Only in the last 20 years has the number of DC’s exploded…due to the illusion of excellent income…from the 80’s and very loose admissions policies by chiropractic schools….Why would the schools have loose admissions policies?....to make money. All chiropractic schools are private and private schools require hefty inflows of cash to keep the doors open.
Furthermore, chiropractors were lucky enough to have patients with insurance plans that allowed unlimited long-term care that paid 100% of the doctor’s fees. It really was the ‘oil strike’ of our profession and the ‘best time every in history to be a chiropractor’...no question. I personally met, face to face, chiropractors that were verifiably making $2 million dollars a year throughout that decade, smiling ear-to-ear.
The majority of DC’s that are currently struggling began practicing in the 1990’s or later (that would include you). The 90’s were an insult when compared to the 80’s. The 90’s were plagued by the introduction of managed care by insurance companies (HMO’s and PPO’s) and powerful computers that performed complicated statistical analysis for the purposes of denying payment, trimming loose financial fat, closing loopholes and making reimbursement difficult. Now, in the 2000’s…it’s much worse and will continue get worse.
It’s an interesting trend among DC’s but appears to be fairly consistent – that is, the old timers are somewhat financially stable and surviving while the recent graduates are worried and starving.
Let’s do some more……how about those pesky expenses.
Expense summary for personal expenses: (this is straight forward)
Minimum Monthly Bills:
Rent…………………….. $800 Electric…………………. $90 Water……………..…… $35 Phone/Cell……………..$75 Auto Insurance………$42 (Average of $500 auto insurance per year, per car) Fuel for car…………….$100 (Average of $1,200 per year on fuel, per car) Food (per person)….$300 (Average of $75 per week in food, per person) Cable/Satellite TV….$65 ____________________ Total pre-loan estimate: $1507
(Come on, $1507 in monthly expenses is an absurd number. I graduated with people that had $650 monthly car payments alone.)
NOTE: I didn’t include a plethora of typical necessities: Car payment, car maintenance, medical insurance, dental insurance, cloths, shoes, hair cuts, make-up (for the ladies), past credit card debt, savings, emergencies, furniture, etc. If you mortgage your home (very unlikely, get familiar with paying rent) don’t forget- home insurance, upkeep, updates, lawn etc.
The Luxuries of: Going out, fun money, high speed internet service, dating or getting married (if single), retirement before turning 75, nice cloths, toys, vacationing, fuel for road trips, a boat, extended time off, a motorcycle, children (and everything that comes with them), making your spouse and/or parents proud, having a nice house in a decent neighborhood, and making your friends envious of your lifestyle…….Won’t Happen….bottom line. (Warning bells should be going off again...very, very loudly!)
Here, the school loans are included with $1507:
School loan monthly payment….…...$894 per month (for a $120,000 school debt) *See Below
Total with school-loan estimate: $1507 + $894= $2401 per month or $28,812 per year in expenses
* Let’s use an average loan debt of $120,000. This number is quite realistic and reasonable which, by the way, will be deferred for 3 years after you graduate….since you won’t be making any real money in your first year or second year for that matter to begin repayment.
$120,000 school debt @ 6.5% interest for 20 years = $214,000 total ($120,000 principle + $94,000 interest) equals $894 per month for 20 years.
Here are some other numbers for reference at 6.5% (as of 7/5/07 interest rates).
$100,000 debt would total $179,000 ($100,000 principle + $79,000 interest) equals $746 per month for 20 years
$140,000 debt would total $250,500 ($140,000 principle + $110,500 interest) equals $1,043 per month for 20 years
$160,000 debt would total $286,300 ($160,000 principle + $126,300 interest) equals $1,192 per month for 20 years
$180,000 debt would total $322,000 ($180,000 principle + $142,000 interest) equals $1,342 per month for 20 years
$200,000 debt would total $357,900 ($200,000 principle + $157,900 interest) equals $1,491 per month for 20 years
REMEMBER this fact: It may cost up to $120,000 in principle to make $14.40 per hour. Or $214,000 with interest calculated…..That’s $214,000 to make $14.40 per hour in the end. Read that again.
Oh…This DOES NOT include any prior undergraduate tuition costs.
Overall Summary of Income minus Expenses and Final Thoughts:
$29,750 income - $28,812 expenses = $938 ($2401 in monthly expenses multiplied by 12 months = $28,812)
What’s left over for the entire YEAR: $938…. for a car payment, cloths, fun, peace of mind and …..….a life.
If you’re married you will have more than $938 extra per year to spend, but not a sizeable amount.
These are raw, realistic numbers. Let the numbers marinate in your mind for a couple of hours, in fact, let this thread marinate a couple of days then read it again.
Tell your friends about this site - e-mail it to them. There are thousands of threads here, a literal gold mine of information. Take advantage of them.
Again, I’m not trying to sway your decision… just show you some indisputable facts. “The writing is on the wall” – Learn from our experiences and mistakes here because you don’t have enough time on this earth to make them all on your own.
Good luck with your career search and selection.
IPFreely
P.S. You need to know 'What it COSTS to become a Chiropractor.' (Click Here) to see some big numbers.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #1 on Jul 5, 2007, 3:35pm »
IP, nice job in dissecting the financial realities that await graduating chiros.
I'd only add that, depending on the state you practice in, the $70 chiro visit may only be a dream. As insurance companies continue to reduce and eliminate chiropractic reimbursement, the possibility of earning a living wage as an ethical chiropractor is just about impossible.
Currently in NY for example; the reimbursement by insurance companies to chiropractors that treat patients injured in auto or work accidents is $33 - $36 per visit. That's total per visit. No matter what service or services you provide. The patient is typically allowed any where from 5 - 20 visits depending upon when the insurance company IME's the patient.
Potential chiro students, please heed these warnings and feel free to ask any questions.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #2 on Jul 6, 2007, 5:19am »
IPF,
Your post was insightful, on target and well stated. I feel compelled to add some commentary.
I pity those naive students who don't have a relative already established in practice. They will face many financial barriers in establishing a successful practice. Unfortunately, the management ads will entice them to "hire a coach". They will soon learn that chiropractors are the "ni*****s" of the health care field. I know that these are strong words, but based upon your conservative statistics, and empirical observations, prejudices and unequal payment from insurance companies still exists Do you know that on OT gets $300 from medicare per hour of billable services?
BTW, have you noticed that personal trainers in gyms have become the defacto chiro of the 21st century. Every day in my gym, I notice a new trainer trolling for clients. They are essentially free agents who get a commission per training session. They must be able to chat up people and sign them up for long term training regimens. At least they have research that can prove exercise is beneficial. What did we have to hang our hat on?, Green books and tapes of a Rabbit twitching when a nerve was stimulated.
I wonder if trainers have mangement companies and coaches?
I apologize for rumbling on, but your post brought back bad memories.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #3 on Jul 6, 2007, 6:05pm »
Thinking back to my Clinical training at Life University, I think that the entire process was about as intellectually challenging as packaging and lifting boxes in a warehouse for 2 months for minimum wage pay. At least you get paid for the latter. Putz is dead on when he describes chiropractors as the "ni*****s" of healthcare, and of "doctoral" degrees. The sorriest "ni****s" of all, are the poor fools who came to the United States from another country, just to study chiropractic. I should know, I am one of them.
Chiropractic is as close as you can get to actually living in a cartoon.
rulerboyz Guest
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #5 on Jul 6, 2007, 8:30pm »
We have something called the 10 year rule where student loans can be discharged if you declare bankruptcy 10 years from the date you stopped being a full time or part time student. The clock is reset if you take a course of any kind. So if you really have your mind set on trying to discharge those Canadian Student Loans, you have to effectively boycott academics for 10 years prior to declaring bankruptcy.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 5,939 Location: USA
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #6 on Jul 6, 2007, 10:33pm »
I was surprised to find that the salaries listed for chiropractic on the site www.salary.com correlate well with the above estimate giving it some credibility. Good job.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #7 on Jul 7, 2007, 1:43am »
Quote:
We have something called the 10 year rule where student loans can be discharged if you declare bankruptcy 10 years from the date you stopped being a full time or part time student. The clock is reset if you take a course of any kind. So if you really have your mind set on trying to discharge those Canadian Student Loans, you have to effectively boycott academics for 10 years prior to declaring bankruptcy.
A friend that used to work for the National Student Loans Center (Canadian) told me that Chiropractic students have a very low loan default rate - but I don't have any proof to back that claim up.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 5,939 Location: USA
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #8 on Jul 7, 2007, 9:01pm »
Here in the USA it was well known that chiropractors had, by far, the highest student loan default rates in the HEAL program. College administrators griped that this was because heal didn't give enough of a grace period as DC grads couldn't make payments immediately after graduation. Eventually the statistics were retooled so that defaults on loan consolidations weren't counted so college administrators could crow about how low their default rates now were. Don't believe the hype, chiropractors are ranked the most disreputable of the heath professions and have the lowest pay of any professional salary. No doubt a true accounting of the real default numbers would show that it has the highest default rate.
"In God we trust, all others bring data" -W. Edwards Deming
rulerboyz Guest
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #9 on Jul 7, 2007, 9:31pm »
Perhaps those chiropractors that are currently in default should be granted the title "D.D.C." or Defaulted Doctor of Chiropractic. They could be lovingly referred to as Deadbeat chiropractors, and enjoy the priveledge of being denied the opportunity to practise in certain States. Also, new rules would force the defaulted Doctors to put it on their signage and stationary and to mention it to new patients during the report of findings (right after disclosing the potential risk of stroke subsequent to neck manipulation).
Maybe they could in turn print up a fake diploma (à la PHT) and send it to their chiropractic colleges and title it PMID or "Putting me into default".
Dear Chiro College,
I bestow upon you the disreputable title of "Putting me into default". Thanks a bunch.
Grimace D.D.C., DACBB (Diplomate American Chiropractic Board of Basementology)
Quote:
Here in the USA it was well known that chiropractors had, by far, the highest student loan default rates in the HEAL program. College administrators griped that this was because heal didn't give enough of a grace period as DC grads couldn't make payments immediately after graduation. Eventually the statistics were retooled so that defaults on loan consolidations weren't counted so college administrators could crow about how low their default rates now were. Don't believe the hype, chiropractors are ranked the most disreputable of the heath professions and have the lowest pay of any professional salary. No doubt a true accounting of the real default numbers would show that it has the highest default rate.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #10 on Jul 8, 2007, 3:32am »
Quote:
No doubt a true accounting of the real default numbers would show that it has the highest default rate.
But like my claim, there is no evidence to back that up (for Canada at least).
But, without consolidation, this link shows the following data for Ontario Student Loans/OSAP (2003 - 2.1%, 2004 - 1.2%, 2005 - 0%, 2006 - 2.1%) http://osap.gov.on.ca/eng/not_secure/default.htm
For reference, the Ontario Student Loan default rates in 2000 were 17.2 per cent for community colleges, 28.9 per cent for private vocational schools
« Last Edit: Jul 8, 2007, 3:55am by canucksurfer »
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 5,939 Location: USA
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #11 on Jul 8, 2007, 4:31pm »
>But like my claim, there is no evidence to back that up (for Canada at least).
Here in the USA two surveys were done that showed chiropractic having a 50% attrition rate within five years. One was by Dr. Ron Slaughter, the second was done here on chirotalk. That, combined with the fact that chiropractic has a low salary for a four year professional degree make the claim plausible.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #12 on Jul 9, 2007, 8:37pm »
Quote:
It was supposed to be "anonymous" and I had it all filled out, brutally honestly until I realized that up on the top corner was a tiny little number that most likely would identify who the "anonymous" survey was from. (deception -not surprising)
This may have been a way of blinding the researchers. I recently did some research work, and we used the regulatory College's mailing list to mail out the surveys. However, only a mailing company had access to the mailing list. They then came up with a unique identifier code, so that we could re-send out the survey to those that did not reply to the first survey. We had no way of identifying any responder because we did not have access to any information which would match the unique identifier to the person's identity.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #13 on Jul 11, 2007, 6:12pm »
Hey, cool. I thought my life/salary sucked. I make more than that and I still think it sucks even though I'm just a scrub associate. So either you're mediocre professional, suck or really suck. Nice profession
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #14 on Jul 12, 2007, 10:13pm »
Totally untrue about an all cash practice, I was fortunate enough to take an associate job with a doc that practiced since 1957 and had an all cash practice, he recently passed away and I have continued to see all of his patients.....all cash and maybe 10% overhead..........it can be done docs........you just have to make good decisions. It seems most of you are mad with your decisions about practicing.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #15 on Jul 13, 2007, 1:31pm »
metellus, I'd like to know more about your so-called "cash practice".
No patients with major medical insurance, no patients injured on the job, no patients injured in automobile accidents?
My experience with chiropractors that claim to have "all cash" practices is that they are really not "all cash". They also play the "what can you afford? game. Some patients pay $35 per visit, some pay $10 per week for all the care they want, some pay $50 per week for all the care they want, some pay $300 per year, etc etc etc.
By the way, charging different patients different amounts is ILLEGAL.
Are chiros prosecuted, rarely, but its still illegal.
Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 532 Location: No B.S. Reality
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #16 on Jul 13, 2007, 9:08pm »
Quote:
I was fortunate enough to take an associate job with a doc that practiced since 1957 and had an all cash practice, he recently passed away and I have continued to see all of his patients
Yes you are…fortunate that is. I’m pleased you...’got lucky’ and sad to see your mentor ‘get it’. It’s rare to hear about a successful transition of a business from one person to another, too many personality conflicts. In your case it was easy because the patients already knew your face. This made the switch seamless.
Quote:
all cash
Fantastic! It’s the only way for a future. Insurance is disappearing. How do you perform this exactly? Please don’t tell me pre-paid scare care or like drj said: the "what can you afford? “ game.
Quote:
maybe 10% overhead
- Do you live in a verrrry small town? - Do you have any employees? - Do you live in a home/office combination so there’s no rent? - Do you have MD’s or other para-professionals that generate money to reduce your expenses? - Do you practice AK or any other specialty that sells supplements or products that generate high profits? - How is it that low?
Seriously, I’d like to know.
Quote:
you just have to make good decisions.
Don’t you mean “just get lucky breaks”?
RegretfulDC said:
Quote:
I don't dispute they exist, just few and far in between.
I agree. You’re fortunate, a diamond in the rough.
Quote:
It seems most of you are mad with your decisions about practicing.
Like you said “Totally untrue”.
Like many practicing (or formerly practicing) DC's we enjoy (maybe not?) helping people, like you I’m sure. I simply would like to change the way I help people other than using chiropractic (manipulation services) because the future doesn’t look promising.
Personally I’m here to warn would-be chiropractic students not to get involved with this profession due to the crushing debt that’s required and the slim chance of success after graduation. That’s it.
Welcome to Chirotalk metullus. I haven’t heard a success story in years. Please continue. I’m here to listen and learn, not attack. Thank you in advance.
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #17 on Jul 14, 2007, 8:32am »
IP:
You did write that there is a slim chance of success after graduation. I do agree that it is difficult on the new grad, no doubt. But if I tried to put a number to define "slim chance", I would think 5-10%. What do you believe isthe success rate of the new grad?
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #18 on Jul 14, 2007, 6:33pm »
well, I do consider myself lucky. I was just telling my wife last night that I lucked out in my associatship and that there are former classmates of mine that are starving. I practice in a small town, there is about 12000 people here, three chiros total in our town. I don't charge different prices here and there, I have one set price and that is $ 25 per adjustment. There is no magic formula to an all cash practice, just realize that people will be happy to pay $ 25 per adjustment, we see bulk patients as well. I am no fool and thank my lucky stars each night that I went to work with my late friend and mentor. He practiced in the same spot for 57 years. You don't practice that long without developing some sort of patient base. That same doc told me the first day I worked there, that when you start a practice, the only overhead you should have is rent, phone, lights, and 1 CA. I am no expert in the cash practice, but I have one that works pretty well and provides me and my family a descent living.
Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 532 Location: No B.S. Reality
Re: Believe it! What Chiropractors REALLY Earn « Reply #19 on Jul 15, 2007, 10:15am »
Metellus…keep it going…best wishes.
Batmandc…good idea for another post.
I just received the July 13, 2007 edition of Chiropractic Economics in which they provided some up-to-date data for this post.
I said:
Quote:
Let’s say there are 12 chiropractors in town that contain our sample population of 20,000 people equals a conservative 1 DC for every 1667 people (20,000 people divided by 12 DC’s = 1667 or 1:1667 ratio), this is reasonable number.
Also, you can extrapolate my (1:1667) ratio to a town of 100,000 people and get a very conservative 60 practicing chiropractors for that town.
Chiropractic Economics said:
Quote:
“Chiropractors in the Area. A rule of thumb: Places with a DC to population ratio of less than 1-to-2000 are tight markets”
Try to find a suburban area with less than a 1 DC per 2000 population ratio. The only place that you can overcome that ratio to practice in rural, country areas of your state.
CE also said:
Quote:
Insurance Reimbursement. If you are going to work with insurance companies, can you get into the managed-care plans? In some areas, the major plans are closed to new doctors and up to 80 percent of the population has that plan.
Also, at what rate do the insurance companies actually reimburse for like or similar services? You may be surprised to know that rates can vary by as much as 100 percent within 400 miles.
Excellent point CE, I failed to mention it. Everyone in the area has one plan and the plan is closed. How will you get into the plans? How will you earn a living?
100% variable rate....hmmm….so what they’re saying is: There may be a 100% reimbursement difference for a manipulation in Town A as opposed to Town B.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong….So if you bill and get reimbursed $50 for a manipulation in Town A, the amount reimbursed for the same treatment in Town B could be anywhere from $0 (NOTHING!) to $100?
Talk about “Rolling up your sleeves and going to Vegas.”
”In 2006, the mean income for male chiropractors with less than 3 years experience was $31,714. The mean income for female chiropractors with less than 3 years experience was $30,833.”
This aligns with and confirms my original income figure of $29,705 per year.
You may be wondering: “What about my state?”
Simply add a few thousand dollars for, let’s say Manhattan and subtract a few thousand for, let’s say Bumbletuck, Kentucky.
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