Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be doctors « Thread Started on Aug 5, 2004, 3:06pm »
This discussion thread concerns a person who notices that chiropractors puff up their educational credentials pretending to be as well trained as MDs. A former chiropractor relates on how poor his chiropractic training was compared to real rehabilitation and medicine.
This DC is right on. I've surveyed many different mixer programs (i.e. National, SCUHS, Western States, Logan) and learned that despite DCs supposedly having the responsibility of weighing the cost to benefit of different treatments, medical and chiropractic, DCs are not trained in medical treatments other than simple pharmacology; so they inevitably overutilize care by funneling patients in dependency inducing or ineffective chiropractic treatments. Straight programs (LIFE, Palmer, Parker, Sherman) are even worse. In addition to not teaching medical treatments they substitute fraudulent diagnostic systems and ban lab tests that would be needed to make a correct diagnosis. The end result is an overpriced, poor quality education no matter what school is attended.
>>The truth is chiropractic education and training does what is supposed to do - train you to be a chiropractor. I see the vast majority of graduates well prepared to do what they are supposed to do. What are chiropractors supposed to do? There is no standards of practice in chiropractic! I do not believe chiropractors have adequate training in the core areas of MSK rehab, either. This is why there is a proliferation of post-graduate courses and programs to deal with chiropractors insecurities, in my opinion. Before I went to chiropractic college I worked as an exercise therapist at a PT clinic that specialized in back and neck pain. I learned more there about exercise protocols, ergonomics, functional capacity evaluations and disability evaluations than I did in my whole chiropractic education! All that was emphasized throughout the chiro education was adjust, adjust, adjust. In my 35 new patients during chiro college I never had to manage very many extremity injuries, just because of what came my way. I definitely studied the textbooks on sports medicine etc, but I saw more extremity injuries in a sports medicine practicum course when I was a kinesiology undergrad than I did as a chiropractic intern! I am thankful for my practical education before I started chiro college because I sure didn't get much hands-on with a variety of MSK cases in chiro college. I never examined a person with a torn ACL at chiro college, I never had to evaluate an acute ankle at chiro college, I never managed somebody with hip OA in chiro college etc etc...
Don't even get me started about chiros thinking they can treat infants and children, or organic disease which most have no practical experience with at chiro college before hitting the "real world." I know at my school we never even examined a baby. How many times was I told that chest pain and shortness of breath can be a "rib subluxation." Now I can't imagine coming to that diagnosis without a complete medical work up.
>>Maybe DC/med student thought he was training to be a medical doctor. I can imagine his vast disappointment when he found out he received a chiropractic diploma on graduation and realized years later he had a chiropractic practice years later instead of a medical practice.
Chiropractic colleges market themselves as the path to a respected health profession. I guess you could say I believed the hype, despite everybody I knew warning me not to go into it back before I started. I always thought I could practice with a DC doing drugless, non-surgical approach to mechanical MSK problems. That never changed for me. I came close to quitting chiro school several times when I realized how pervasive the "subluxation based, philosophical approach" was in the real world. I knew what I wanted to do as a chiropractor and I did it. When it was time to move on, I went back to school for something different. It was a good stepping stone for me in the end.
>>I think DC/med student has "devolved" (some here will appreciate the inside joke on that word) back into a student who unfortunately feels likes he knows it all and has lost perspective.
Quite the opposite to feeling like "I know it all." On a daily basis I realize how much I don't know. Medical education is a very humbling experience for me. It is much more intense and much more clincal exposure that I can't even compare it to chiro school.
>>And by the way, not that I am a seminar hopper by any means, but the only doctor I ever see is on the name tag, not in addressing each other
I meant when speakers are introduced before they give their talk to the audience, that's all. I didn't mean when people are talking to each other in the hotel lobby or anything.
I have gotten used to attacks by chiropractors. All the way through chiro college I was called a "medipractor" in a derogatory way by the straights. Once in practic, all the straights in my town tried to tell patients I wasn't a "real chiropractor" and that if they went to me "they don't know what chiropractic is." Nothing new there!
Joined: Aug 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 11 Location: Washington
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #1 on Aug 11, 2004, 5:15am »
Quote:
This discussion thread concerns a person who notices that chiropractors puff up their educational credentials pretending to be as well trained as MDs. A former chiropractor relates on how poor his chiropractic training was compared to real rehabilitation and medicine.
The prerequisite classes that are required for admission, are practical and thorough. After browsing through a few topics in here, everyone seems to discredit Chiropractors because of a few hairy situations. A College is a business, and a business has intentions of making money. Yes its very fair to say, that a Chiropractic school has comparable intentions to other professional schools of the health market. Who's to say their not out there to turn a doller? The Pre-req’s give a quick acceptance, to the stuff that really matters.
Is it really important that I complete my Calc I and II next year? Is my practice really going to benefit? I was just reading in another topic, where people were pointing fingers at the Chiropractic field for the number of Post-grad students with fiscal issues. Yet, you continue to badger on about how we should tack on another year of institution. Which way do you want it?
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #2 on Aug 11, 2004, 6:29am »
Sean your post is a bit rambling but I'll do my best to address it.
>The prerequisite classes that are required for admission (to chiro school), are practical and thorough.
The classes may be but the low entrance GPA requirement guarantees that chiropractors are the dumbest of all health care providers.
>After browsing through a few topics in here, everyone seems to discredit Chiropractors because of a few hairy situations.
I can see how because of the low number of cases you are inclined to minimize the risk. However, for the people affected (victims and students) the damages are huge.
>A College is a business, and a business has intentions of making money. Yes its very fair to say, that a Chiropractic school has comparable intentions to other professional schools of the health market.
It's funny that you hold the opinion that standard medical care's only intention is to make money. That's ignorant and pessimistic.
>Is it really important that I complete my Calc I and II next year? Is my practice really going to benefit?
I agree with you here. Because chiropractic doesn't have a legitimate niche the pre-reqs and classes in schools constitute a lot of hoop jumping to impress the public and politicians. Chiropractic curriculums used to be only 18 months and turned out graduates who practiced the same way as current straight grads from places like Sherman College of Chiropractic and Life University.
>I was just reading in another topic, where people were pointing fingers at the Chiropractic field for the number of Post-grad students with fiscal issues. Yet, you continue to badger on about how we should tack on another year of institution. Which way do you want it?
Apart from the knowledge gained, an undergrad degree shows that a candidate has desireable qualities such as the ability to work hard and complete a goal and additional maturity.
However, at this point I don' t think that this would be enough to make chiros competent health care providers. I'm against all chiropractic education. It's a waste of a person's time and money. Students get much better training in medically oriented programs and can always learn to manipulation without all the chiropractic misinformation and quackery. Chiropractic doesn't need more hoops, it needs euthanasia.
Joined: Aug 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 11 Location: Washington
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #3 on Aug 11, 2004, 3:02pm »
Allen, The bar in any school sets is just a suggested GPA. Its interesting that your keen to exactly how a school accepts there candidates. University of Washington requires a 3.0, do you really think the average GPA of oncoming freshman will resides at the 3.0 level? Your typical Chiropractic school requires a 2.5 GPA, this will weed out any of the bare minimum stragglers. You also to have the misconception that someone's intelligence revolves around their GPA. What kind of absurd view is that!!! Do you really think that a few numbers is all you need to accurately gauge someone's intelligence? If you want to argue about how you think the profession is a waste that¡¦s fine, but insulting the people who seeks this route is ignorant, and childish.
Why do you think the Chiropractors are the only ones to take advantage of insurance? Other physicians find their ways to tap into the pocket books of customers. It cost me nearly 1000 dollars about a month to go, just to get some blood work done! How absurd and corrupt if that! Do I need to go into how much my appendectomy cost my insurance company, let alone my own pocket book! Talk about a scandal!
"It's funny that you hold the opinion that standard medical care's only intention is to make money. That's ignorant and pessimistic. "
You misunderstood my point, regardless I can tell you my opinion. I believe that the physiology behind the human body requires much more attention then just a few prescriptions, and some blood work . I believe that the body is a system, and must be dealt with in a multi-faceted approach. To think that there is only one way to heal the body is being ignorant. I plan to have connections with a various team of doctors that can assist my patients in the manor I feel is the best approach. I also plan to keep the ¡§quacks¡¨ that your referring to (I view quacks as arrogant disbelievers ƒº ), out of the loop.
"Apart from the knowledge gained, an undergrad degree shows that a candidate has desireable qualities such as the ability to work hard and complete a goal and additional maturity.¡"<br> The ability to work hard in life can be demonstrated in many different ways. Who¡¦s to say that I¡¦m not working hard throughout my coursework? Maturity is a relative term that can be demonstrated by presentation of ones self in the presence of whomever. Working hard seems to be a given with any health profession, not just your typical physician.
"However, at this point I don' t think that this would be enough to make chiros competent health care providers. I'm against all chiropractic education. It's a waste of a person's time and money. Students get much better training in medically oriented programs and can always learn to manipulation without all the chiropractic misinformation and quackery. Chiropractic doesn't need more hoops, it needs euthanasia."
Perhaps in another topic, you can guide me to a more suitable approach. I'm always willing to listen to opinions.
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 462 Location: New Jersey
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #5 on Feb 21, 2005, 1:07pm »
Id like to weigh in on this one from a different point of view. A four year degree, 3.5 GPA or higher, and an admissions exam (MCAT) weeds out students that have a tract record of mediocracy. After medical school, medical students compete for residence spots and the candidates are selected for interview mostly based on transcripts, board scores, and letters of recomendation. A medical student will not get a position with a 2.0 and minimal board scores. High admission requirments allow the medical school to know that their students are capable of securing a spot after graduation. The problem is that grades and board scores once you are in chiro school mean nothing. There is no incentive for a chiro student to do anything more that just get by. Just like what Peter said in OFFICE SPACE " I do just enough work not to get fired." There isnt any post grad training required for licensure that chiro graduates compete for. "D's and C's equal DC" right? Post graduate education in chiropractic requires money. The DC with a 2.0 and the lowest possible board scores can open up shop the day after graduation. Lesser admission requirements coupled with no incentive to succede produces a lesser type of graduate.
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #6 on Mar 4, 2005, 1:34am »
Quote:
despite DCs supposedly having the responsibility of weighing the cost to benefit of different treatments, medical and chiropractic, DCs are not trained in medical treatments other than simple pharmacology; so they inevitably overutilize care by funneling patients in dependency inducing or ineffective chiropractic treatments.
So what are MDs doing? They pretty much only have pharmacology to fall back on and if that doesnt work the patient is malingering or has a mental illness. I dont treat with Pharmacology so why should my lack of pharmacology make me a quack. That seems like it is you that is narrow minded into believing in only one type of treatment for your patient. If pharmacology is needed I have no problem referring out to a MD. Many drugs are needed and safe lives but dont try to push the crap that they are all good and will help the patient. Many cause more problems than they fix. Lipitor comes to mind there.
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #7 on Mar 4, 2005, 1:57am »
Game, Pharmacology is an extremely complex and powerful science that has broad scopes of application to various types of patient problems, from lifesaving to morbidity control. For any person to simply lump Pharmacology into a simple paradigm is ignorant of both human physiology and pharmacology and how this system is complex.
Simply stated Manipulation and Pharmacology are not comparable modalities. Manipulation can treat a limited number of complaints and has a limited scope of practice. Pharmacology has no such limitations.
Secondly MD's have more tools at their disposal than drug therapies.
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #8 on Mar 4, 2005, 1:58am »
Quote:
The classes may be but the low entrance GPA requirement guarantees that chiropractors are the dumbest of all health care providers.
Never judge a persons dumbness by their GPA
Quote:
It's funny that you hold the opinion that standard medical care's only intention is to make money. That's ignorant and pessimistic.
Is that why they charge $100+ for an office visit that at times consists of giving a Rx for an antibiotic when a patient has a viral infection? Twice I have had MDs say well you have viral infection, I can give you an antibiotic if you want it. WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?
Quote:
I'm against all chiropractic education. It's a waste of a person's time and money. Students get much better training in medically oriented programs and can always learn to manipulation without all the chiropractic misinformation and quackery. Chiropractic doesn't need more hoops, it needs euthanasia.
I finally figured you out. You were either a pathetic DC with no drive or direction or you're one of those MDs posing as a DC and then pretending to badmouth your own profession. Either way I would like to thank you for the entertainment. Your last comment here had made me realize the SPASM that your life must endure at the sight of every successful and legit DC you come across!
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #9 on Mar 4, 2005, 2:07am »
"Is that why they charge $100+ for an office visit that at times consists of giving a Rx for an antibiotic when a patient has a viral infection? Twice I have had MDs say well you have viral infection, I can give you an antibiotic if you want it. WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?"
Prescribing an antibiotic for a viral infection is not necessarily contraindicated. In lung viral infections for instance the antibiotic is used as a prophylactic to prevent opportunistic infections from bacteria, which in an already immune challenged individual makes sense.
Secondly cultures are very hard to get with some types of infections, and it may not be clear what agent is causing the infection, so to be safe antibiotics may be prescribed, even if the initial signs look like a viral infection is involved.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Warning « Reply #10 on Mar 4, 2005, 5:14am »
>I finally figured you out. You were either a pathetic DC with no drive or direction or you're one of those MDs posing as a DC and then pretending to badmouth your own profession. Either way I would like to thank you for the entertainment. Your last comment here had made me realize the SPASM that your life must endure at the sight of every successful and legit DC you come across!
Game,
The tone of some of your posts on the Chirotalk forum is too argumentative- it is not conducive to a good discussion. Please read all of our policies in the instructions section and decide if you can abide by them. Some chiropractors just can't, and we understand that. If not, please refrain from posting. If so, you are welcome to continue posting.
Future ad homonym attacks may result in loss of forum privileges.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #11 on Mar 4, 2005, 5:23am »
>Hate the player not the game.
This sounds like just another version of the blame the victim ploy.
Your unsubstantiated comments have a very hateful and rude tone Game. Be advised, we don't take kindly to nonproductive ad hominem attacks by anonymous chiropractic fanatics.
"In God we trust, all others bring data" -W. Edwards Deming
game Guest
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #12 on Mar 4, 2005, 9:35am »
Okay lets see if I can ask a question that wont get me banned since it seems that you threaten to ban anyone who doesnt agree with your ideas. It looks like everytime someposts about how they feel you are wrong you just say their post is unfounded and offensive to others.
On the other hand forget it. You will only be upset because the question isn't agreeable with your subjective posts. I will just go to post to a forum that isnt bias and only concerned with spreading hate towards others who are successful where you MAY have failed. I said may, I didnt what to hurt your feelings.
BTW if Hate the Player not the game confuses you and looks like a cope out what does your Hate the game and the player look like?
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #14 on Mar 4, 2005, 10:41am »
Hi Game,
Where are you at? Are you a student? Are you practicing? I am just curious.
I practiced for eight years, both in my own practice and for other D.C.s as an employee.
My experience on my own was that I could get people better with pain in about 3-5 visits. Any more than that then I referred them out. That's not to say that I didn't see patients for longer than 5 visits, but if they didn't show marked improvement, I tried to hook them up with someone who could, maybe even another D.C. that I knew wouldn't overutilize.
The thing is, if you are practicing, you are proving Allen's argument for him, because anyone else who has pracitced in any sort of health care, professionally can see that you are not setting any valid premises for your arguments and, to add insult to injury, you say that Allen is arguing from a subjective stance.
This all looks rather odd to anyone who is practicing professionally. Really, I stay away from other boards just for this reason. I just posted in another section that I have yet to see a practicing D.C. offer anything more than anecdotal evidence that could not be countered by good, hard, objective research. Allen has consistently done this.
If you are a student, then I would suggest that you talk to some health care professionals in other fields. Keep an open mind. Talk to an oncologist, an enocrinologist, someone practicing besides a chiropractor and see if you can bring up any of your arguments to them and make them hold water.
Really, you aren't doing your profession any good.
Hope this helps you to rethink your argumentative skills.
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 462 Location: New Jersey
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #16 on Mar 4, 2005, 9:08pm »
Quote:
So what are MDs doing? They pretty much only have pharmacology to fall back on and if that doesnt work the patient is malingering or has a mental illness. I dont treat with Pharmacology so why should my lack of pharmacology make me a quack. That seems like it is you that is narrow minded into believing in only one type of treatment for your patient. If pharmacology is needed I have no problem referring out to a MD. Many drugs are needed and safe lives but dont try to push the crap that they are all good and will help the patient. Many cause more problems than they fix. Lipitor comes to mind there.
You see Game, this is where your lack of clinical experience comes in. Its not your fault. Its hard to get a good sense of what goes on out there when you spent three and half years of your adult life in chiropractic school or any graduate program. Its not your fault, its your school, your fellow students, your vendors and your ego. Now maybe you can calm down and listen to Dr. Bottnick and the rest of us.
I am a medical doctor and a chiropractor. When you write "MDs" in your post, thats me:) So. We (mds) like to start patients out with lifestyle and dietary advice first, if that will not suffice, we progress to the lowest possible dosage of the indicated medication, then if need be, we raise dosage and/or change meds. Thats how it works for chronic dz. Infections require anti-biotics as tx or as dcognosis said, prophos. You see Game, anti-biotics generally come in two flavors, bacteriostatic or bacteriocidal. Statics prevent growth of bacterial cell colonies and allow the "innate host defenses" to fight the infection, good right? Cidals kill em straight up. Now, lets say you have an infection that your "innate host defenses" will kill. You develope antibodies to the proteins on the bacterial cell walls. They help kill bacteria, good right? But....antibodies can cross react with "innate host proteins" on things like heart valves, brain tissue, connective tissue, and when that happens, bad things happen like oh....Rheumatic Fever, Sydnhams Corea, and PANDA. I think I'll take my chances with the antibiotics killing bugs then allowing my "immate host defenses" to do it for long periods of time and run the risk of auto-immunity. You took pathophysiology, clinical microbiology, infectious dz, immunology, and spent time in hospitals treating patients with ID during chiro school right??? Right??
Re: DCs don't need an undergrad degree to be docto « Reply #18 on Mar 4, 2005, 11:14pm »
Here perhaps if we talk about chiropractic the way they started my education I might be able to make a difference.
This is from some bad attempts I had at developing an alternate philosophical model to other dissatisfied students while I was at Chiro school.
Introducing the new principles of Chiropractic.
1) Complex systems are prone to error. 2) All gross biological systems are complex systems. 3) Therefore all biological systems are prone to error
4) As errors are accumulated the system loses efficiency, functions or even life. 5) Living systems have a propensity to adapt over time to the accumulation of errors in response to stress. 6) There is a limit to a biological system's ability to adapt to specific stressors.
7) All complex systems require input of resources, output of waste and a maintainable system of interactions and exchanges. 8) Accumulated errors or major errors to a system's functionality can collapse that system, following known as the death feeback loop...ooohh scary. 9) Humans are complex biological systems. 10) Humans accumulate errors over time, are born with errors or are confronted with an unadaptable stress, thus causing a death feedback loop...even more scary.
The healer's Principles 11) In order to change the circumstances of a complex system one must have three things, Knowledge of the systems functions and problems, Tools specifically designed or capable of interacting with that system, and the proper will to use both. 12) Unspecific tools used in a system will cause different errors if the tool isn't specific to the systems primary error correction. 13) Incomplete knowledge of a systems function will prevent the proper use of available tools, or prevent the development of new more specific tools. 14) No system is perfect, all systems eventually will collapse.
15) The Tool as God Fallacy. When using a tool to change a system, it must be observed that the tool should not become a higher purpose than the error it was designed to correct. 16) The knowledge Fallacy. Logical thought is only useful to the application of will to a complex system change when there is sufficient knowledge about that system to explain the interactions of that system. Lack of knowledge prevents the logical use of tools and may lead to more errors.
I know this elementary speculation is hard to swallow, and is ridiculous at best, but it demonstrates how easily a philosophical model could be used and applied to the medical arts.
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