Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,181 Location: CA
This One is a Gem « Thread Started on Apr 3, 2006, 1:45am »
The following is part of a formal complaint by the WCA that a certain California State Board consultant (Craw) is getting way too heavy handed with practicing DCs.
Note that Craw does not consider DACBRs to be radiologists:
Quote:
In a letter posted on the website of the American Chiropractic College of Radiology, Steven L. Weiner, DC summarized a conversation with Maggie Craw, DC. He stated that Craw informed him that "practicing as a 'radiologist' is not within our scope of practice AND that the ACBR (American Chiropractic Board of Radiology) is not officially recognized by the Chiropractic Board of California." Weiner's letter further states, "Maggie (Craw) went on to inform me that she has been aware of these facts for a period of time, but the Board is just too busy putting out bigger ires." (www.dacbr.com/2005_workshop/Reports/CA%20radiologist%20problems.pdf)
Craw has elected to "look the other way," for political reasons, when chiropractors represent themselves as specialists in fields traditionally held by medicine, such as radiology and orthopedics.
This is absolutely hysterical! Here we have one chiropractor not even acknowledging the credentials of another. What a field this is!
What's even more funny is that chiropractors will often point to Terry Yochum DC DACBR as an example of the widespread acceptance of chiropractic. But now, it seems not even the California State Chiropractic board acknowledges Yochum's credentials.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,181 Location: CA
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #1 on Apr 3, 2006, 2:20am »
Quote:
A chiropractor cannot claim to be anything other than a chiropractor by virtue of holding a chiropractic license. A chiropractor may not represent himself/herself as a medical specialist.
Under Opinion No. CV 76‑50 ‑‑ August 26, 1976, the attorney general's opinion addressed the query of the Honorable Eugene A. Chappie, Assemblyman for the 3rd District:
'Can a chiropractor, by virtue of his license, practice the art or claim to be an anatomist, neurologist, cardiologist, diagnostician ... orthopedist ... roentgenologist, dietician, or anything except a chiropractor?
Our conclusions are that by virtue of holding a chiropractic license:
1. A chiropractor cannot practice the art of anything but chiropractic...
2. A chiropractor cannot, solely by virtue of his chiropractic license, claim to be anything other than a chiropractor'.
CV 76‑50 further notes that pursuant to the Chiropractic Act, Initiative Measure, Statutes of 1923, page 1xxxviii, section 7 provides:
"One form of certificate shall be issued by the board of chiropractic examiners, which said Certificate shall be designated, 'License to practice chiropractic.'"
The principle that the Chiropractic Act is a limited exception to the requirements of licensure by the Board of Medical Examiners has been consistently upheld by the courts. See: Crees v. California State Board of Medical Examiners, 213 Cal. App. 2d 195 (1963); People v. Fowler, 32 Cal. App. 2d Supp. 737 (1938); People v. Augusto, 193 Cal. App. 2d 253 (1961).
Therefore, representing oneself as a "radiologist" or "orthopedist" on the basis of chiropractic licensure alone is unlawful.
Chiropractic specialties are not recognized under California law
Its surreal....that's the only way I can describe this....I can't believe I was so stupid......
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 372 Location: midwest
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #2 on Apr 12, 2006, 10:12am »
Does anyone out there know of ANY state that does recognize "Chiropractic Specialties"? I do not. I do know of a chiropractor who verbally represents that he is a "chiropractic internist" - whatever that is. He is careful NOT to put that into writing, and does not advertize as anything but a chiro... I am waiting for him to cross the line... I know of another who,depending on his audience, claims to be a "pain specialist" at other times he claims he is a "fibromialgia specialsit" !!!! Again, I am waiting for this to appear in writing. But I only have researched my particualr state, Kansas, and my state at least DOES NOT recognize any "speciality" within the chiro discipline. Does any State? Thanks in advance.
Even if the chiropractor were to be some sort of "specialist", there is very little they could do about the problem once it's properly diagnosed because the scope of practice is pathetically narrow.
The closest they could come to any sort of specialist is in rehabilitation, but the schools are very weak in this area.
It makes one ask "How can a chiropractor pursue excellence?"... when all he is is a magician with one trick. By this, I mean its sort of a moot point how much he knows about "internal medicine"..... the diplomate cannot use the extra education, if it is education, to do anything different than a normal DC.
For example, how would getting the DABCO change a potential treatment plan or expand the scope of practice?
Joined: Feb 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 462 Location: New Jersey
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #4 on Apr 13, 2006, 4:40am »
I looked on the Chiropractic Internist web site. It's a 300 hour course leading to "Diplomate" status and then you are a "chiropractic internist." 300 hours to be an internist, wow. I work over 300 hours a month as an internist and Im not Board eligable yet, I must be doing something wrong.
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #5 on Apr 13, 2006, 10:12am »
"Chiropractic Internist"? What the H is a "chiropractic internist"? What could a chiropractor possibly do relative to internal medicine?
A sure sign of grand delusion that is manifest on a smaller scale among most all chiropractors. It takes a severely deluded chiro to want to call himself an "internist".
Nothing, abosultely nothing, shocks me about this backwards "profession" anymore. They act like the guy going back in the past (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12208638/) is somehow a freak and not representative of the chiropractic profession, yet they don't even blink at something like this internist crap.
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #6 on Apr 13, 2006, 10:25am »
drross:
I don't think anyone in the chiropractic profession thinks that someone with the internist diplomate is the equivalent of a medical internist. There is no comparison.
I would say the radiology diplomate is close with skelatal radiology. I have taken the rehabilitation course work, this does not put me on par with the PM&R docs. But what it has done is improve my ability to treat the musculoskeletal cases that walk through my door. That is all I was looking for.
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #7 on Apr 13, 2006, 11:18am »
Quote:
drross:
I don't think anyone in the chiropractic profession thinks that someone with the internist diplomate is the equivalent of a medical internist. There is no comparison.
batmandc
Hmmm. I disagree, and I think you are being either disingenuous or naive to say that. You know - or should know - full well that what chiropractors think say and do is fully from the belief that they are the equivalent or in many cases superior to their medical counterparts. To pretend that this is not the mentality of the chiropraxis is to deliberately ignore what chiropractos have been saying for lo these many years.
For your edification:
DACBI mission statement: "To maintain and promote the chiropractic profession as primary health care providers, support the advancement of chiropractic, influence full scope practice within the profession and in current and future health reform legislation."
To MAINTAIN the chiropractic profession as PRIMARY HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS? Since when have chiropractors EVER BEEN primary health care providers?
Here's some sample topics: Pelvic Diseases/ Exam of Pelvis & Associated Pathology; Multi-Channel Blood/ CBC/ Thyroid Panel/ TSH; Reports, Clinical Documentation & Drug Reactions; Electrocardiography & Phonocardiography; Pediatrics; Spirometry and Pulmonary Disease.
These look like topics of interest to medical internists, not chiropractors. I don't recall ever treating or diagnosing thyroid disease, pelvic disease, doing ECGs, documenting drug reactions or any of the other stuff they are giving seminars on. But then again, I was just a "chiropractor", not a "chiropractic internist".
Note also this is the ACA, not some fringe group. They don't even blink at the absurdity of this proposition. And yes, batman, they DO think they are equals to the medical internists, just with a - how do they say it - a "different paradigm".
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #8 on Apr 13, 2006, 11:58am »
Grimey:
You are right, let me change a part of that sentence. I think that most DC's do not consider the two equivalent. Just because the internist group thinks they are primary care providers does not mean that the entire profession accepts that notion. I do not think this is naive or disingenuous. Again, I think there is a missuse of the terms primary care vs. portal of entry.
Most DC cases are for musculoskeletal cases. What is the standard of care if a patient does not respond to the DC's intervention? It is not to look for the local DACBI, it is to refer to the appropriate medical specialty. I think if you ask these with the DACBI training( I know a few),see if they get any referrals from their DC counterparts for their non-responsive cases. Of course they don't. They will use their knowledge to treat or diagnose the patients that come into their office but do not get referrals from other DC's.
Look at the DC's with the DACBO training. They do have additional knowledge and most likely improved diagnostic ability, but in the end, they are chiropractors. Again, ask the DACBO's ( I know a few more of these guys) if they get any referrals from other DC's on their non-responsive cases. The answer to this is generally no. If most DC's thought they were equivelent, they would be getting all of the referrals on their non-responsive cases.
What I am getting at is that the general population of chiropractors view the specialities as chiropractors who have done some additional training in a certain field of interest. Admirable to attempt to expand their knowledge but not the equivalent of their MD counterparts( Again, I have the chiropractic rehab training but I do not consider myself the equivilent of the PM&R MD's and DO's). They do not view these as specialists in the medical realm.
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #9 on Apr 13, 2006, 12:09pm »
I have remained silent for a while but a "chiropractic anything" is ridiculous! What is a chiropractic internist going to do with his diagnosis? Besides misdiagnose and manipulate? What ever his diagnosis is he still has only one inappropiate tool. He still a one trick pony! My daughter is about to finish her first year of medical school and she has seen more real disease then most DCs will see in ten lifetimes. You cannot properly diagnose what you have never seen. Doing weekend seminars will not cut it. I never saw any patient in school with any serious disease. It is plain irresponsible to play "doctor'. In my state we are allowed to do prostate exams but I refuse to do them because I care to much about my patients to chance missing a problem because of clinical incompetance. I refer to a GP who has done 1000s of them. He respects me because I know what I can and can't do. I wouldn't want to hurt a patient because I thought I could do something that I am not capable of doing. Patient welfare is more important than my ego. These chiropractic internists(sic) are more concerned with appearing to be real doctors than the welfare of the public, I couldn't bear to call them patients. This is so problematic on so many levels that it causes me to want to scream.
Re: This One is a Gem « Reply #10 on Jun 8, 2009, 10:17am »
jwmjfm - you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. First off the ability to diagnose depends on the individual. Maybe your daughter has seen many diseases in her 'first year of med school' but it doesn't mean she would even accurately diagnose the common cold. Medical doctors are pawns of the pharmaceutical industry. She will most likely overprescribe unnecessary drugs to all of her patients causing more harm than good. I would also like to mention that you should not talk about things that you are not educated about because it makes you sound like a fool. Considering that the diagnosis is what you are concerned about why not look at the statistics. MD's are misdiagnosing left and right. You are just as likely to get a proper diagnosis by asking a random person on the street. The MD's don't know anything that isn't a common problem. If its out of the norm they refer to their text books. The laymen can do that now too with the internet. At least if a DC was diagnosing they wouldn't jump into drugs and surgery as the first answer to a problem that can be fixed naturally. So again, before you talk try finding out the truth first. And to be honest, you clearly must be a poor chiropractor that truly limits what chiropractic can accomplish. To call your profession a 'one trick pony' is a statement reserved for someone that has the skill to only treat sprain/strain.
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