Poll Question: Did you feel compelled to cheat in order to graduate from your DC program?
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Total Votes: 10 Total Voters: 10
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Topic: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? (Read 3,236 times)
rulerboyz Guest
Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Thread Started on May 27, 2006, 11:05am »
From my own personal experience as a student at Life University, I noticed that academic cheating and dishonesty was widespread. No place was this more evident than in clinic. The drive to meet clinical requirements motivated many students to use all kinds of "shortcuts" in order to meet their bottom line: patient visit numbers. In fact many were probably not even aware that what they were doing was in fact cheating. Because the majority of the students that you knew probably used one scheme or another, you may not have thought of it as cheating. If it was a behavior you knew you had to hide so that you wouldn't get caught, chances are quite good that you were cheating. So I will spell out some scenarios to give you some examples of typical kinds of hidden/ dishonest methods I found commonly occurred.
1. Paying for patient fees, or for a patient's time in order to fulfill requirements. 2. Subjecting family and friends to unecessary radiation in order to meet your X-ray requirements without following through with any real treatment for those patients once the needed credit was obtained in order to pass. 3. Falsifying clinical documents and/or inventing clinical findings to ease your way towards obtaining Clinic credit. 4. Attempting to load your careplans in order to increase the number of patient visits based on your own needs for credit rather than the needs of the patient for treatment. 5. Cheating on exams by studying stolen tests. 6. Sneaking a peak at a friend's answers during an exam. 7. Clocking your friend into the clinic time clock so that they could obtain credit for time they did not spend working in the clinic. Or signing friends into class so that they would be counted as being present for a class while they were actually absent. 8. Writing an exam for someone else.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #1 on May 27, 2006, 11:25am »
I used to work for the Dean of the School of Chiropractic at Life University, James Brown and saw the academic failure rates. A full 30% of students failed to recruit enough patients to pass clinic in 1997. This netted the school a lot of extra tuition dollars, especially when they added dormitories and could charge rent for staying extra time to finish.
With failure rates like that I can't blame the students for paying for patients to come in. After all, wasn't that what the giant wooden plaque in the clinic hall said:
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #2 on May 27, 2006, 11:29am »
I, for one, did on occasion. It was more normal to cheat than not to. The teachers copletely turned a blind eye to it. Example: The class ahead of me had a paper to do and over half the class wrote the EXACT same paper, title, paragraghs, everything. Literally, the only thing that was different were the names on the top right hand corner. They were obviously caught by the dean who in turn punished them. Their punishment....do the paper over. Cheating in almost any other school is grounds for suspension for a quarter, if not complete expulsion. At least an F in the class. Nope, they just had to do the paper over again. The class name that they all cheated on? Ethics.
I tried not to cheat, and I admit, it was very wrong what I did. It is hard not to when whole groups somehow got their hands on the test coming up in 3 days and share it with everyone. I just don;t think this would fly in ANY other school.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,376 Location: CA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #3 on May 27, 2006, 11:40am »
At Cleveland, ALL pathology classes were equipped with old exams which had about 75% of the current test's questions. A person could only study these old exams and pass. I complained to the Dean but this fell on deaf ears. After which, I once again played the chiropractic game and looked at the old tests only on the day of the exam.
I paid for a large portion of my patient visits too. On the clinic documents, I just "told them what they wanted to hear" like everyone told me to do for my board exams.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #4 on May 27, 2006, 12:00pm »
How can cheating be unethical in an unethical field? Don't two wrongs make a right? LOL
Seriously, there is no such thing as a valid contract for an illegal act (i.e. fraud). If chiropractic schools are using false advertising and teaching propaganda then there is no such thing as cheating in that context.
Contracts are only valid for legitimate institutions.
"In God we trust, all others bring data" -W. Edwards Deming
rulerboyz Guest
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #5 on May 27, 2006, 12:49pm »
You raise a fair point Allen, however I still think it is a valid question to ask because it helps to uncover troubling issues that the Schools would rather hide from the public. And more importantly, they want to hide these things from prospective student cash cows.
You will no doubt recall that Life's moto was: "To give, love and serve out of abundance". Yet the type of system that was set up for clinical training often accomplished the opposite of that mission statement. Here are some common things which I heard students make in clinic:
"I need X more adjustments." "I need another X-ray credit, can you help me?" "I need such and such thing, or else I won't pass."
This is the language that I heard spoken by many in the Clinic who were struggling. It is not the language of "giving out of abundance". It is the language of "jumping through hoops out of desperation". It is the language which shows that many learned that the very Chiropractic services they were taught how to provide were devalued to the point where they needed to be manufactured in order to keep the machine running. To that end the need arose to bribe their patients with money and gifts in order to grease the wheels enough to allow them to pass so they could survive the program.
At the time just before Life was scheduled to lose it's accreditation I ran into one clinician who had a group of buddies enter the clinic around the same time. He would tell me: "I got to go, the whistle just blew and my patient mill is about the start up."
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #6 on May 27, 2006, 2:13pm »
Even back in the early 80's we were paying for people to come in to the clinic at Life. At the time, the fee for a patient was five dollars per visit which was eventually raised to eight dollars. I remember very distinctly going from door to door at the nearby apartment complexes asking people if they had any back or neck pains, and that, out of our "generosity", as a way of "giving back", we would make it possible for them to get treatment for free. We were desperate back then too.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,376 Location: CA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #7 on May 27, 2006, 2:19pm »
I now remember the pathology teacher saying that if everyone didn't start showing up to class and on time, he would make up an entirely NEW test! This scared eveyone. From the beginning, I noticed how chiropractic punishes and prosecutes learning and excellence. Clair Johnson wrote what I consider to be one of the most profound papers in chiropractic:
The chiropractic education is also about substituting arbitrary rules for real knowledge. That's why I posted the picture of the monkey as an NBCE board examiner. They will take points off if the "stabilizing hand" is not exactly where it "needs" to be all while the assessment/technique in general is as invalid as the day is long. It doesn't matter that the student went through hundreds of journal articles to find out exactly what the hell he's doing because his teachers certainly don't have any idea. This is what I saw...This is what it was like to take a chiropractic test through my eyes. Sure, they're watching closely, but there isn't a single brain cell behind it.:
But yes, Allen you are right. These people think there should be an honor among theives.
It's also such a farce when these people go around spreading that chiropractic love...yea right....People who are really loving are not usually running around everywhere telling everyone how loving they are.....This applies to many things....The people who are really good or are the REAL thing tend not to pump themselves up so artificially. I can spot a scammer from a mile away now....That's a genuine feature of chiropractic education...
Chiropractic is as close as you can get to actually living in a cartoon.
rulerboyz Guest
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #8 on May 27, 2006, 2:31pm »
From the Pedantic Teacher Quizz:
>>>6. Do you enjoy asking your students questions that they cannot answer?
Sounds like a classic Doctor Gutstein move. One time he even tried to put a guy on the spot who wasn't even a student, but rather a friend of a student who was visiting the class.
One day Dr Gutstein said to the class. "Alright everybody put away your books. I will be giving a pop quizz that is worth half of your grade. If you don't pass this you will fail the the class."
After the quizz it turned out that he was just joking, apparently because he got a kick out of scaring the crap out of us.
Another thing he liked to say went something like: "This profession is very dear to me and I don't want to simply hand it over to you guys unless you can prove yourselves worthy of the title of Chiropractor."
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #9 on May 27, 2006, 4:50pm »
> After the quizz it turned out that he was just joking, apparently because he got a kick out of scaring the crap out of us.
Keeping people scared and/or busy prevents the kind of free thought required to question the mileu and discover the scams. It's a cult tactic-thought stopping.
Joined: Apr 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 446 Location: Shreveport LA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #10 on May 27, 2006, 5:26pm »
Paying for tests, xrays, etc. for your clinic requirements was very common at Palmer when I went there in the early '80's. One the one hand: paying for something you needed and there is no medical justification is not unethical. You needed it, the patient didn't. On the other hand: It did prepare you for the real world of chiropractic. Your real patients probably didn't need your services so you fabricated the need to the patient and or their insurance company.
Could you imagine this being done at medical school? "Mr. _, I need just one more appendectomy to graduate, I know you don't need it, but I will pay your bill for you if you will let me do it.
If "the power that made the body can heal the body" were true then why do people get sick and need doctors? That sounds like proof of unintillegent design to me.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #11 on May 27, 2006, 5:40pm »
It sounds like science fiction but it goes on every day in chiropractic school. Tell that to your "professors" DC2BE. You should be ashamed to attend such a lousy place.
I kinda agree with Allen. How is it cheating??? « Reply #13 on May 27, 2006, 7:39pm »
First...never, ever cheated academically. Never felt tempted b/c I wanted to earn my grades even in the stupid subjects.
Now about clinic....since drumming up numbers of patients doesn't have a damn thing to do with learning to be a doctor I felt the school cheated me. Nobody wanted the service...and it sounds like every school had the same problem. Did I make it through clinic on recycled old patients...yep...did I have our best friends and her three kids come in many times....yep. That cost me lots of weekend lunches etc but hey, we would have taken them out anyway...I just felt less guilty. I knew then this was a bunch of hoo haa but damn...I was less than a year from getting out so I went through the garbage to get the degree.
So, like Allen said, "how's it cheating when your cheated?" (or something like that). I honestly feel if chiro was abolished then PT would take it's place and never be missed. Apparently, most of the healthcare profession and federal government agree. I just think it's sad there isn't a more clear cut way for us to transition out.
I've personally had it with being a chiro and my resume is hitting the streets next week. I'm walking away, still in debt, while I still can with some dignity left. I know there are good people in chiro but it's gotten to the point I just feel it's plain silly...crack this, pop that...give text book doctor talk without real knowledge and then out the door. I feel like a fraud even though I know I'm not (if you disagree keep it to yourself) so my view is I will never feel any different about this so who am I kidding? I've been posting on this board since last year...it's time to go.
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #16 on Jun 4, 2006, 10:39pm »
Going to school in Davenpit, there is only way to get past Gilbert Schmiedel's class, and that is to use his old tests to study from. The way he words a question, you actually had to learn how to speak Schmied from the old tests in order to understand what the hell he's asking. I remember one time he got severely pissed off at a few people talking during lecture, so he makes the announcement that "No amount of old tests will help you on the next test." Little did he know that my little circle of bandits had copies of tests that went 26 years back. We were golden.
Now that's one alky that Palmer can never fire; he's got a life-time contract signed by B.J.
Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,376 Location: CA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #17 on Jun 5, 2006, 2:27am »
NW,
That was funny! After so many poorly written exams, I got into this habit whereby, if I finished the exam early, I would correct the spelling, grammar, etc of the actual test itself .....so cocky!... I would "grade" my professors' exams that they gave me!....
BC,
Godspeed! They won't miss us....They're most likely very pleased to see us go......But sometime from now you'll look back and know you made the right decision....and they'll still be chasing subluxations..... still be trying to find and define "subluxations" while scaring the hell out of their patients about them..... still combating one another over doctrine.....still lifting up the cultlike personalities and practices to places of wealth and prominence....still shamelessly marketing their ability to remove this ever so harmful $26 lesion....In otherwords, they'll still be chiropractors.
Joined: Apr 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 446 Location: Shreveport LA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #18 on Jun 5, 2006, 8:47am »
Nemo, That reminds me of the time when I took the final in xray physics. There was a question that was poorly worded and I answered it the way I thought the teacher asked it. Of course, I got it wrong and it caused me to get a "B" instead of an "A" in the class. I went to and discussed this with the instructor after the test was graded and returned. I showed him how the question actually had two correct answers depending on how the question was interpretered. He agreed with my answer but refused to change my grade. Most of the others in the class got this question correct he argued. They got it correct because they had studied his old tests and this question and answer was on them. What really irked me was that I was a physisc major prior to chiropractic school and I knew more than the instructor, yet he was sitting in judgment of me!
If "the power that made the body can heal the body" were true then why do people get sick and need doctors? That sounds like proof of unintillegent design to me.
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #19 on Jun 6, 2006, 12:00pm »
It is funny how many instructors expected you to cheat in some way or another. I had a buddy of mine who was, academically, a real F$%K-UP(don't ge me wrong, though, he was a friend and he would agree to my comment). He repeated many classes and I do not know how he actually graduated. Of course he cheated like there was no tommorrow and he made no secret about it. One of the instructors joked about it with us later, saying that he never passed his classes, he merely "successfully navigated through them".
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #20 on Jun 6, 2006, 12:53pm »
I remember a couple instances during lab exams where a fellow classmate was bombing the test so badly that they started cursing. They still managed to pass the test with a C grade. I think that when it came to most classes that were taught by chiropractors there was often a tendency by many instructors to take it easy on people who were struggling. That's not to say this practise is unique to Chiropractic schools as I'm sure it happens in a variety of other academic settings. Yet it is probably more common.
I also recall one anatomy class (CNS) where I was hoping to just pass the class. When I looked at my grade I was amazed to see that I had finished with an "A".
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 373 Location: midwest
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #21 on Jun 7, 2006, 2:06pm »
I cannot comment on chiropractic school, but I have observed the argument frequently advanced by DC's that the current chiropractic education from an American college of chiropractic is equal to (or better) than other professional schools, primarily medical school. I am not qualified to comment on that assertion. What I can recite from personal experience is the first lecture ,of the first day of class, by the Academic Dean of an ABA accredited Law School.This was in Aug 1976 and from what I hear from recent alumni , it has not changed that much in 30 years. It went something like this....... .........." Good morning, my name is Dean Raymond Spring. You are privileged to be attending one of the finest colleges of law in the country. You must remember this however; having been admitted is NO guarantee that you will graduate. Each of you should look to the person on your immediate right, and then look to the person on your immediate left. Within the next three years approximately 50% of the people you have just looked at will no longer be attending this or any other law school. Our philosophy is this: it is unfair to permit you to attend three years of postgraduate schooling , at enormous expense ,if you will not be prepared to take the Bar examinations with a 90% chance of passage on the first attempt, and be qualified to handle , in a courtroom, with a jury, your first case on the first day after you graduate."......... ....."It is our belief that the the process of "weeding out" the unqualified bar applicant began with the selection process for admission to this school. Everyone sitting in this hall has at least one Bachelor's degree,and the majority of you are also honors graduates of your respective colleges or university's. Statistically, at least 30% of you have two college degrees and fully 25% of you have either an additional masters degree or a PhD, One of you already has an MD, and a couple of you have degrees in architecture. Many of this years admitees have 'hard science' degrees in such fields as chemistry and biology. The point is, you are used to being recognized for academic achievement . That part of your life is over. The student who could expect "A"s for undergraduate course work will get a "C" for equivalent performance here. Academic excellence is considered average at this school , and a "C" means, among your peers, that you have done an average job. ".......
His words were prophetic. Of the over 200 1L's attending that lecture, the graduating class had 96. Cheating meant immediate expulsion and a lifetime prohibition on taking the Bar exam in this state. When I read the comments from some of the people who have attended chiropractic school and who probably are smarter than I , people who could have been accepted into other disciplines , I can understand the anger at the chiro educational complex. In law school the big fear was not being able to pass the Bar after all that work , time , expense , and lost income from other work 'passed upon' in order to get the Juris Doctor degree. Oddly, we felt reassured by the Deans' promise that that would not happen, because anyone who could not 'get it' would be gone long before they graduated. Most of the students that left law school did so in the first semester of the first year. The Deans promises were accurate however, 50% of the admitted students left before graduation for one reason or another, and <95% of the graduates who took the Bar passed it on the first attempt. That and NO ONE, not one person, was ever even rumored to have cheated. It would not have been tolerated by the other class members, even without the Honor Code. No one would have suffered someone else 'stealing ' a grade they worked so hard to earn. How is it that chiropractic schools can be so different ?
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #22 on Jun 7, 2006, 6:19pm »
>How is it that chiropractic schools can be so different ?
It is because students enter chiropractic school with huge amounts of entitlement and pride. They feel they deserve to earn a good living and are that choosing chiropractic is a smart choice-like finding a diamond in a pile of coal. At the majority of schools (straight) students encounter heavily pro-subluxation curriculums which reinforce the idea that diagnosis subjects are imposed on them from a hostile pro-medical national board and actually lead to the unnecessary and inferior imitation of medicine. They feel that they can safely refer to MDs when necessary by noting red flags, never admit that adjustments have any significant side effects and feel that chiropractors who diagnose patients do a worse job of it than medical doctors and so should not do it at all. This gives them a disdain for their education and most would finish it in one year if they could.
So JDs respect their degree, chiropractors see it as a hoop to jump through. This is why the straight chiropractic organizations have fought for more representation on the CCE accreditor-they want to change the standards to lower the hoops. Former Life University President Sid E. Williams actually fought against raising entrance grade point averages in the 1990s. He was also in attendance at June 6, 2006 US Dept of Education hearing on renewal of CCE's accreditation and most likely had been a key organizer for the many people who spoke against it.
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #23 on Jun 8, 2006, 11:59am »
At the University I went to before Chiro school, there was absolutely no rumor of cheating either. I studied my a$$ off for the grades that I got, not because I wanted to go to Chiro school, but because I, along with my fellow classmates, felt pressed by the professors to excell in our majors. Lawman, at your Law school, they truly did weed out the weaker students. Where I went, they held our hand for the first year. They basically gave us the answers to the tests. Ping-pong in the cafeteria was more stressful than the classes. I was fed the idea of easy $$$, and I ate it up like a sponge for years. Cheating was accepted, the teachers were OK about it, and the students did it. I am trying to think, and I cannot think of one student, NOT 1 PERSON, who did not cheat at one time or another, at least acedemically. At the University, one student was caught trying to pay for someone to write his paper for him, and he was expelled very fast. I cannot figure out what happened with my "higher education".
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #24 on Jun 19, 2006, 3:17am »
Hello, I've posted before regarding my short trimester at the Davenport "school". Yes, you have to cheat in order to get anything accomplished and or passed. I have a friend there that claims to get straight A's. Is he lying? No! It's because the very first day he moved into College Court Apartments (owned and operated by Palmer) the other long-time tenants passed him a ginormous box of old tests from Lewellyn and Bahti, Manley-Buser, Mekow you name it - four to five years worth of tests were in that box. He gets straight A's alright, because the old timer teachers there are too damn lazy to make up new test questions by being too busy spending their six figure salaries of our hard to pay back student loans! Virtually the entire test bank is floating around campus, the only thing to alter your grade in your first trimester is Mekow's lab practicals. The school is a joke and the teachers are all laughable. I hate to say it but Bahti and Lewellyn are about the only excellent instructors Palmer has going for them and as of last semester they're retiring. No one is teaching, especially in the Biochemistry department. Palmers BioChem department is a joke. Everyone cheated in that class and still does...heck many of the "proctor assistants" help the students cheat. I've seen it! Lewellyn gives heinous quizzes all of the time and everyone I talked to cheated every week! The answers get whispered all around you in the auditorium and the upper tri students say it quietly to the closest rows...especially if you're paying for their alcohol that week! The chiropractic college let ANYONE in, including chronic alcoholics, verbally and physically abusive people and apparently a lot of cheaters! After my first week of exams I came home depressed and told my wife that I got a D and a C! She told me to work harder. She didn't understand my frustration to tears when I told her that I passed the opportunity to do a "study group" by taking the moral high ground. The "study groups" at Palmer are simply a group of people meeting with upper tri's that have stolen exams - I'm not talking exams on file at the library I'm talking stolen exams...the same exams that Mekow and Lewellyn lecture about before test day that will get you thrown out if caught with one. So to all of you potential Palmer students - if you want to get your degree live in College Court and you'll be set. I used to see a chiropractor until I realized how very unskilled and untrained they truly are in the 'art' of chiropractic. It's a load of bull for the $$ and I'm well underway with a career that is already paying out great profits while my sucker friend is losing his shirt without even knowing it. I hate all things Palmer and chiropractic and I will die a happy man when I see the demise of all things chiropractic. I fell for that #$#hole Guy Reikeman's speech on campus tour day at Palmer...such a polished charismatic speaker I fell for his infomercial style presentation on chiropractic. There was so much excrement dripping off of his words I should have seen the overkill he used to sell chiropractic to us. Only myself and three others out of 168 students had the sense to bail. Man is the fleecing of America getting easier and easier, I think I should start a chiropractic college! Maybe I'll get some money back for all of you.
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #25 on Jun 20, 2006, 12:44pm »
I agree with you Pete. I remember the first day...actually first year, when they ingrained in our heads how we were the true doctors out there to save the world. "Subluxation" was a horrifying thing to have that must be eradicated or the the Apocolypse would occur. At one of our seminars they showed the clip from "Jacob's Ladder", the scene where Danny Ayelo, the chiro, goes into the hospital, busts it up, and pulls Tim Robbins out. The entire cafeteria erupted like the 4th of July, and I thought everyone, including myself at the time, would just rush the hospitals and pull all the sick people out to adjust them. You go through things like that, yet stealing tests is perfectly OK. I wish I could go back in time.
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #27 on Jun 20, 2006, 5:08pm »
Sad story on that one. A student at my chiro school died from what I think was Bacterial Meningitis. He did not seek medical help until I think it was too late. I never knew the guy other than the fact that he got sick and died and it was 90% preventable had he done the right thing and go to the doctor for a proper diagnosis.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,331 Location: USA
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #28 on Jun 20, 2006, 6:35pm »
Which college was that? We were able to document at least two students who died exactly like that at Life University. Once again, the true believers are victims as we. One died from untreated Diabetes (Julian Ho the namesake for the same scholarship that his father was duped into starting) and Louis Menendez from untreated coronary artery disease. When Menendez died on the steps to the library one student criticized faculty for not adjusting his atlas (C1) instead of administering CPR in the throes of a heart attack.
Re: Did you cheat in Chiropractic College? « Reply #29 on Jun 27, 2006, 11:22am »
Oh my God! How ridiculous. A fellow student in our Advanced First Aid Class said he would deliver a C1 adjustment before administering CPR, since obviously it is a subluxation that caused to heart attack, right? I thought he was a smart guy until that moment.
Another student was talking to me(or at me) in the library and he told me that he was insanely frustrated because a family member of his was getting chemo treatment for Leukemia and not getting adjusted. A professor(Ph.D, not DC) in our school had cancer and was getting treatment from the hospital, and some of the students were telling her, in her face, that she might as well kill herself quickly because that is what she was doing by going to an oncologist rather than a nutritionist, DC, and HHP. She finally had to put a note up on the board telling students to respect her decisions regarding her cancer treatments. I do not know how she is now.
Anyways, those are just a couple of the wacky things that went on in my school. Allen, I almost forgot, I went to LCCW. I did not know the guy (who died of Meningitis)so I won;t say all of what I heard since a lot of it could have been rumors and I do not want to say the wrong info about it.
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