Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck adj « Thread Started on Nov 15, 2006, 2:51am »
Hi everyone.
I posted my story on the patient question board but thought I would post my latest outcome here. It's entitled "will this nausea ever go away?"
Basically I had my neck adjusted both sides, upper neck too, C0,1,2 etc...as well as my back T and a bunch of #'s I have it somewhere. I became nauseatd right after the appt. Told him, he had me come in saying he could undo it. He adjusted my neck AGAIN! Little did i know this was stupid.
6 weeks later I am no longer working and nauseated as can be. My head, neck, temples etc...are worse than before I saw him too. My head hurts more in the usual places plus there are NEW places that hurt too now, like the top of the head and others.
When I was on the ear board thinking this was an inner ear problem a doctor replied saying the following:
I'm specifically concerned that the recent chiropractic manipulation may have caused or aggravated either a cervical nerve impingement or a posterior circulation issue.
What do you all think of this?
Yesterday I went to a neuro optometrist who said something about depth of perception and my eyes not being on the same page when they move. He diagnosed me with esophoria and hyperphoria. He said he did not know if it will work but said they can offer me prism lenses and vision therapy. It is almost 2K and my insurance does not cover such things.
Today I went to the emergency room today because I am so frustrated not getting answers and want to find a diagnosis as to why my eyes are doing what they do. I have never before gone to the ER. The ER doctor could not find anything wrong based on testing my strength, reflexes, checking my eyes, ears, blood pressure, walking, closing eyes touching my nose etc...they wanted to send me home but I insisted on seeing a neurologist and finally I did. I was there 1-9. She did the same testing but also some other stuff like checking my memory, writing stuff, drawing, repeating stuff, etc...I did okay except my memory was a bit off. I requested an MRI and MRA and the neuro consulted with another neuro I did not meet and said they would do that. Forgot what parts, the brain stem and something else. I asked her if she has dealt with other patients who had similar problems due to chiro manipulations and she said nothing like mine.
I hoped I would get a little farther with this appt. But now tomorrow I have to wait to get an appt to do the MRI/MRA and an appt with a neuro. I want to do it ALL no later than end of this week. I did not go to the ER for nothing. Because I suffered 6 weeks they dont take it as seriously making me wish I came in the night it happened but I thought it may go away.
I forgot to ask about a stroke. And they said that nothing huge could have happened based on how I did on the tests. Is this true you think? Can anything that shows up on the MRI/MRA be only a small thing if it did not show up today? I know my nausea is major to be going on so long. I want to think this is curable. I already deal with tmjd (head, neck, tmj jaw pain), arthritis in my jaw and tmj's for 6 years, super dry eyes as of June of this year, and last week was diagnosed with Sjorgens. I am already not doing well for a 30 year old woman.They just kept trying to put me to take the Zofran which I did tonight when I got home but no relief yet. I can't believe how much just scrolling on the computer makes me sick.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #1 on Nov 15, 2006, 11:29pm »
Have you gone back to this Chiropractor? I hope not...Just wanted to know if he/she was calling you and asking how you were doing, or did he/she refer you on to anyone else, or did you not even tell your Chiro what has happened? I think you should go in and ask for a copy of your records, before anything is changed! We learned this first hand with our injury. I would be curious as to what your Chiro would say if you told him/her all the pain and stress you are going through because of him. It might make you feel better to talk face to face with him. Maybe he will help to get some of these expences paid, and not so much out of pocket for you, If he was realy concerned. One more question, if I may, Did the ER know you went to the Chiro, by you telling them, or did they ask you if you had been treated by one? thanks
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #4 on Nov 27, 2006, 12:28pm »
Quote:
NOTE:-
Discussing anything here has the potential to be read by all Chiropractors !!!
DO NOT go beyond the public Chiropractor Reception area ever again.
If you cannot get your notes at Reception, then request them in writing.
Your Medical Doctors will need to read them in order to be able to treat you properly.
(My DC wrote his notes of me in !! Pencil !! )
Hi Graham, Most of the links in your site aren't up yet... brand new site? Here is a petition out of Australia that might interest you. Welcome to Chirotalk.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #5 on Nov 27, 2006, 12:48pm »
Welcome Graham!
I am very sorry to hear what happened to you, I am also happy to hear you are willing to tell your story so others will not be victims like yourself. You would be surprised how many people just keep to themselves and don't try to fight. Please keep it up.
I would like you to look at a few other websites which might give you some advice. I urge you to contact the people who run these websites.
Tyler Durden: You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
"You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you cant fool all of the people all the time." -Abraham Lincoln
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: gmweb1.net
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #6 on Nov 27, 2006, 4:28pm »
Hi Diane.
Yes, a new Website, and I have not yet got much of a clue about what I am doing. I'm trying to convert a business template. (There is another GMweb2 but someone else has constructed and runs that.)
I signed that petition. Then I saw some of the entries and was very disappointed. It was in serious need of Moderation to garner *any* credibility !
Hi Marley,
The problem is letting the public know - before the Chiropractors get at them.
If we name the bad DCs we could be sued. If we give out medical reports we could affect our own future treatment.
So I am going to put up my scans without hospital/doctor/report details so that all Medical professionals might have an idea of what to look for when it comes to helping victims of this vicious treatment.
For instance. The top image shows how neck 'treatment' caused me to have floaters, a left eye that would move by itself and give me double or vibrating vision, also toothache where I do not have teeth, etc.
According to the DC I had suffered a normal reaction that was nothing to worry about as he treated me for the spasmed neck muscles. He was trying to click my neck, only the muscles were tight, so he pulled stronger and stronger until the last time he gave an almighty tug and I heard crunching and tearing noises.
It had been my skull that gave way against my fit but spasmed muscles. (Fit being past tense. I exercised every day but can't since.)
Maybe those who are fit are more likely to be injured when their strong muscles are spasmed
So now my pharyngeal muscles pull on left cranial nerves, and even left eye movements can stun me deep inside my head, though not as badly now because I have had to retrain/relearn to prevent myself from having automatic balancing or stress reactions that pull certain muscles.
And the cause of my burning earaches can be seen in the fourth scan.
Pains and nausea were bad enough, but worst of all was the inability to rest due to a body stress so bad that a weighing scales pointer became unreadable due to it pulsating with my heartbeat.
But hey. I'm still here, though typing this with just my right hand, because using the left causes in-head pains and left ear-ache.
And I have enough (donated) server capacity available to put up radiology files for anyone else who might wish to contribute to building a Chiropractic Injury reference site.
Scans and x-rays are actually very easy to photograph with the more recent digital cameras. _________________________________________________________________________
Well I'm only just starting out on this journey, so let's see what good this keyboard and http://www.gmweb1.net/ can do !
He sounded interested in your story and informed me he would chat with you sometime. He is a good guy and very vocal about his hate for the chiropractic profession. He might have some connections with other people injured by chiropractors.
Tyler Durden: You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
"You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you cant fool all of the people all the time." -Abraham Lincoln
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
diane Guest
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #8 on Nov 27, 2006, 6:03pm »
Hi Graham,
Quote:
I signed that petition. Then I saw some of the entries and was very disappointed. It was in serious need of Moderation to garner *any* credibility !
Yes there are ugly piles of stinky troll doo-doo to wade through. It's a bit of a turn-off at first, and the petition originator even came on with a message about it, about a hundred signatures back...
But, upon reflection, I think that it's perfect just the way it is, troll crap and all, because it let's the public have a peek at the mentality of chiros who sign it it such a manner - it shows them up for what they really are. It speaks volumes about how little they care about anyone but themselves, what a game all this is to them, how narcissistic chiro is, how chiros immediately hate anyone who dares to put out something, anything, even a perfectly polite petition of this nature.
So I say, let it rattle around out in the internet, trolls and all. Who knows, maybe one day it will become a piece of realistic virtual artwork or internet archeology for future generations to ponder.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: gmweb1.net
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #9 on Nov 27, 2006, 6:40pm »
Oh - right Dianne - I see. Though as a signer I was disappointed.
Thanks Marley.
There were/still are so many symptoms not mentioned, related to pains, hearing, co-ordination, inabilities. I even demonstrated my right leg bleeding as I stuck needles in to show numbness. Many more scans to show too.
However my concern is for the new member 'inoregon' because doctors will waste her insurance money looking in the wrong places if they are not guided.
« Last Edit: Nov 27, 2006, 6:41pm by grahammaynard »
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #12 on Dec 4, 2006, 1:24pm »
grahammanard,
You did a great job of being politically correct and very sincere about staying away from chiropractors.
Here is why what you are doing is important. Today, chiropractors are moving further and further into quackery and the unknowing public is being taken advantage of. Chiropractors have been making this shift since insurance companies have decreased reimbursements.
One thing I noticed while I was a chiropractor is the large amount of consulting firms which train chiropractors how to make as much money as possible. This is a scary, chiros should be concentrating on getting people out of pain in a safe manner. The consulting firm based chiros will "rack and crack" anyone they can get their hands on.
Tyler Durden: You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
"You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you cant fool all of the people all the time." -Abraham Lincoln
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: gmweb1.net
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #13 on Dec 4, 2006, 4:54pm »
Thank you Diane and Marley for the encouragement, but I am writing no more than the truth.
Just noticed you both use lower case 'c' like I have on my site to write the chiro word. That is unless I need to use the upper case to start a sentence !!!
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #14 on Dec 4, 2006, 7:36pm »
Graham, with all due respect. You do not give an accurate assessment of the risks involved with chiropractic.
You said, ".. but I am writing no more than the truth."
No you are not. You imply that chiros are injuring patients at an alarming rate. The fact is, the risk of any injury from being treated by a chiropractor is very very small.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #15 on Dec 4, 2006, 8:44pm »
Although serious injuries from chiropractors are rare, you can't argue with malpractice rates, the amount of minor injuries may be common. There may be damage to the ligaments with HVLA manipulation and damage to the capsules. Many chiropractic students enter chiropractic college with no neck or back problems but when they graduate they often have sore neck and/or backs that require repeated manipulations to relieve their pain. Also an often made argument in this forum is that any risk is too high if there is no reason for the procedure. For example someone manipulating the cervical spine to effect a condition not related to neck pain- such as trying to effect the sympathetic nervous system to treat hyperactivity.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #16 on Dec 4, 2006, 8:53pm »
Quote:
The fact is, the risk of any injury from being treated by a chiropractor is very very small.
Keeping things in their proper perspective, this is true. The actual incidence of serious injury is quite small given the large numbers of people who are receiving chiropractic treatment, including upper cervical manipulations. Unfortunately it is typically difficult to pinpoint exactly what it is that makes a particular chiropractor dangerous to a specific "at risk" patient. I believe that there are chiropractors out there who are very incompetent and do pose a danger to patients. But even then, there will only be a small number of really bad adverse reactions. It would be misleading to try to indicate a direct correlation here because the evidence says otherwise. Critics of chiropractic should be cautious to not jump on the bandwagon of trying to overstate the risk and incidence of these adverse chiropractic reactions. This is not to minimize their impact, because these injuries can be devastating.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #17 on Dec 4, 2006, 9:34pm »
Quote:
Graham, with all due respect. You do not give an accurate assessment of the risks involved with chiropractic.
You said, ".. but I am writing no more than the truth."
No you are not. You imply that chiros are injuring patients at an alarming rate. The fact is, the risk of any injury from being treated by a chiropractor is very very small.
drj, with all due respect, if you are one of the people who manipulation hurts, the risk has just jumped to 100%. Then it's the truth for that individual.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #18 on Dec 4, 2006, 10:17pm »
Graham says on his website, "Chiropractors cannot directly avail themselves of your existing medical records".
Graham, not true, as are many other things you say on your website..
Diane, of course "if you are one of the people who manipulation hurts, the risk has just jumped to 100%." Its also true that if a person engages in physical rehab too early and happens to have a reinjury, then the risk to that person is also 100%.
The untruth in Grahams writings is his overall implication that chiros are injuring patients at a high rate. They are not. I make this narrow yet valid point because, as Grimace notes above, it is important in keeping things in perspective.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: gmweb1.net
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #19 on Dec 5, 2006, 4:11am »
Hi drj,
How dare you say that to those who are injured !!!
Where are your figures, who compiled them, and who were the patient referees???
Injury might be small on a per treatment basis, but how many treatments does a patient receive per session or course.
My head was jerk/pulled at grossly abnormal angles (whatever you call that) for 43 times before it gave way and my skull was broken. And who knows when my lower back treatment was supposed to be complete, I was never told.
Maybe you should divide your figure by 43 ! If my injury was rare then why were the men who did this to me not disciplined to set an example for standards ?
Wise up, and get out of denial mode. Chiropractors are a danger to public health. FULL STOP.
Anyone hear how new member 'inoregon' is getting on, or how I might contact her.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: gmweb1.net
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #20 on Dec 5, 2006, 4:23am »
drj writes >>>Graham says on his website, "Chiropractors cannot directly avail themselves of your existing medical records".
Graham, not true, as are many other things you say on your website..<<<
Are you telling me that chiropractors ring up a patient's GP, requests, obtains and then studies a copy of their medical records before they start 'treatment'.
It takes ten days or more to get a copy of Patient's records in the UK. Would a chiropractor wait this long before he could start charging ?
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #21 on Dec 5, 2006, 6:26am »
to graham, drj, others, From page 27, Topical Issues in Pain Volume 5 (2006), Louis Gifford editor:
Quote:
The safety of mobilization and manipulation techniques As far as we are aware there is no evidence to suggest that serious tissue based injuries occur with 'reasonable' grades of mobilization techniques. On the other hand, there is little doubt that even modest mobilization techniques administered to patients with significant peripheral neurogenic or maladaptive central sensitivity are easily capable of 'stirring up' pain and associated symptoms. Knowledge of maladaptive pain mechanisms and the potential they have to cause significant flare-ups without tissue damage must surely help therapists and patients to have a better and more confident understanding of the situation. As we all know, it is never pleasant to stir up a patient's pain, especially with the belief that some ghastly damage has occurred.
The literature does contain numerous studies detailing incidents and accidents resulting from spinal and pelvic joint manipulation. Stevinson et al (2001), Grieve (1994), Dupeyron et al (2003), and Assendelft et al (1996) identified vertebrobasilar artery (VBA) injuries, intervertebral disc prolapse/sequestration and cauda equina syndrome as the most common accidents following manipulation. Other documented manipulation related accidents include death, stroke, nerve root compression, paraplegia, vertebral fractures and embolisms. It is pertinent to note that there are as yet no designated pre-manipulative screening protocols capable of eradicating these manipulative accidents (Haldeman et al 2002).
The average age of those patients suffering VBA related strokes following cervical spine manipulation is 38 years old, this is far lower than that of national 'stroke averages'. This is particularly worrying in light of the otherwise 'rare' occurrence of this type of stroke in young people. There are conflicting reports in the related literature surrounding the incidence of manipulative accidents. Risk factors have been quoted to be between 1 in 20,000 to 1 in 4,000,000 manipulations performed. Until recently it has been difficult to ascertain a realistic incidence of manipulative accidents. This has largely been due to the significant under reporting of these events. However, Dupeyon et al (2003) studied the incidence of manipulative accidents occurring to patients who went on to present to 133 physicians including neurologists, neurosurgeons, and rheumatologists over a 2-year period. They found that the incidence of VBA accidents alone was 30 times higher than that in published studies. Potentially this indicates that the risk of serious manipulative accidents could be as high as 1 in every 666 manipulations performed.
In view of the incidence of 'side-effects' associated with spinal and pelvic joint manipulation, it is probably fair to assume that if these techniques were subject to the same clinical trials and scrutiny as new drugs, their licensing would be rejected on the basis of their inherent risk of injury. Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that manipulation techniques have any superior clinical effect above and beyond alternative non-injurious mobilization techniques. In view of the available evidence regarding risks and benefits, it is our belief that there are no circumstances in which it would appear appropriate to recommend the use of manipulation in clinical practice.
My bold. There are manipulative therapists in every hands-on social grooming profession, of course; in PT however, research by such practitioners (such as John Childs) is finally helping to determine clinical prediction rules which help practitioners select patients to safely manipulate rather than holus-bolus manipulating any and all comers for the cash in it.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #22 on Dec 5, 2006, 8:21am »
Quote:
...the risk of serious manipulative accidents could be as high as 1 in every 666 manipulations performed.
Is 666 the number of the Chiropractic Beast?
Quote:
My head was jerk/pulled at grossly abnormal angles (whatever you call that) for 43 times before it gave way and my skull was broken. And who knows when my lower back treatment was supposed to be complete, I was never told.
This does not sound like a typical chiropractic treatment at all. I would venture to guess that this chiropractor was a deeply disturbed individual who did not know what they were doing insofar as patient comfort levels were concerned and then obviously did not know how to treat you in such a way as to "do no harm". Like I've already said, I do believe that there are many chiropractors out there who are this dangerous and are ticking time bombs waiting to seriously hurt someone. Unfortunately the current education, standardization and legislation of the profession does not do enough to weed them out of the system.
My pointing this out does not mean that I am defending chiropractors or chiropractic in any way. I think that someone should be accountable for these kinds of issues. And that the individual chiropractor shouldn't just become the sole fallguy when the profession itself is culpable of negligence and incompetence on a large scale. Chiropractic has so many faults at the educational level that have been criminally overlooked and allowed to continue without very much punishment to provide an incentive for change.
Whenever a chiropractor opens their own office, they can perform chiropractor in their own unique way without anyone looking over their shoulder. Given the low admission standards at many chiropractic colleges, it becomes likely that many of the students who are recruited into the profession will eventually grow to become unscrupulous chiropractors some of which could pose a danger to the health of their patients while others may use their license as their ticket to commit healthcare fraud. When the chiropractic bar is set so low, and the treatment itself is so often unnecessary and misapplied, the price paid by society is going to be too great.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #23 on Dec 5, 2006, 10:05am »
I was also thinking that the average age of stroke victims for chiropractic patients being lower could be caused by the fact that some patients who present to chiroparctors are strokes in progress with symptoms such as headaches and numbness in an extremity. Remember that correlation alone doesn't show causality. A large problem in the chiropractic profession is the disdain chiropractors hold towards science and research. Chiropractors need to know how to understand complex journal articles. The average chiropractor has neither the ability nor the interest in reading any type of scientific literature.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #24 on Dec 5, 2006, 11:01am »
graham said, "..my skull was broken."
Now you're getting a little emotional.
And yes graham, chiros can access a patient's medical records when necessary. If need be, the patient can obtain them. What records do you think your chiro should have accessed before he treated you?
graham also said, "If my injury was rare then why were the men who did this to me not disciplined to set an example for standards?"
graham, if you were mistreated, sue them.
Diane, 1 in 666?
Of all my close friends in chiropractic I never heard of one of them seriously injuring a patient. Several of them where manipulating 500 - 600 times per week for years on end. So, according to "your" figures, they were seriously injuring a patient about once per week. Would that be about right?
Strokes are occurring at younger ages. So is heart disease. It aint related to chiropractic.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #25 on Dec 5, 2006, 11:38am »
Maybe the whole chiropractic approach should change where massage and mobilization would be attempted prior to manipulation. This could be tried for 2 weeks or so and then only if no progress is made, manipulation would be utilized. Perhaps chiropractors over manipulate because when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Maybe in twenty years or so the chiropractic approach will be much different. I was looking at the chiroplanet web site the other day where students comment on the various chiropractic colleges that they attended. Some chiropractic colleges now apparently are attempting to move away from the subluxation model of bone on nerve and trying to be more scientific in their approach.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: gmweb1.net
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #26 on Dec 5, 2006, 12:27pm »
drj wrote. >>>graham said, "..my skull was broken." and Now you're getting a little emotional.<<<
What an arrogant and compassion disassociated comment ! What is emotional about skull fracture, and the human/family suffering it causes. ?
drj. By your own words you seem like one of those who does not give a damn about the direct suffering that chiropractors repetitively cause?
Records? Ah-ha. You seem to have changed tack here ! Exactly !!! The patient must request them because chiros are not medically qualified and are not entitled. So, *before* the chiropractor starts with the 'treatment', he or she does not request them directly, either in the sense of immediate time or as a medical request. Do you think it right that chiropractors do no more than seek answers to a few questions from a non-medically trained patient in order to study a non GP-referred pre-presenting patient history before administering 'treatment'. This puts the patient at an even greater risk than they realise !
Sue them ?
Oh yes, foolish me. Suing would get my health back. Do you realise what you are saying?
I should have got off my sickbed and run around the country wracked with pain and done what you said. I should have borrowed a small fortune to cover costs even though no case can ever be guaranteed and there is no likelyhood of me ever being able to pay fees.
Thank you for your thoughtlessness, it has given me even more ideas for writing.
There are two sides to every story, and now that ordinary people have the Internet - ordinary people like those injured by chiropractors - at long last there is a chance for circumventing the justice issue that big money and professionals use to brush cases under the carpet.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #27 on Dec 5, 2006, 12:35pm »
Quote:
Some chiropractic colleges now apparently are attempting to move away from the subluxation model of bone on nerve and trying to be more scientific in their approach.
You know what - this is how chiro schools are misinforming potential chiro students. They lie and pretend to teach "more scientific" approaches.
Guess what - I was trained by a Logan College of Chiropractic to be a primary care physician. lol
The reality is that it is harder and harder to get started in the chiropractic profession. Insurance reimbursement is down, public acceptance is down, competition is up, student loans are way up. Why should anyone care what a corrupt chiropractic college is teaching?
Tyler Durden: You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.
"You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you cant fool all of the people all the time." -Abraham Lincoln
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #28 on Dec 5, 2006, 1:32pm »
Marley, What the chiropractic colleges teach is important because that is an important factor in determining in what direction the profession is headed. Change occurs slowly and starts with the education of the students. The poor education of so many Life students has harmed this profession. A good education is not a cure all for the profession, but it sure helps a lot.
Re: Went to the ER for the nausea from upper neck « Reply #29 on Dec 5, 2006, 1:44pm »
graham, the chiro fractured your skull? And you don't think you have a case for malpractice? You're sounding more bizarre to me each post.
Also graham, I, as a chiro, have requested, when I thought it necessary, the medical records of patients. Many times they were faxed right over if they were available. Medical doctors and hospitals send them all the time. What are you talking about?
Again I'll ask, what medical records do you think your chiro should have seen before he started to treat you? How do you think these records would have helped you or him?
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