Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,542 Location: USA
Update for student loan defenses « Thread Started on Jul 21, 2005, 4:05am »
Quote:
>Also, you might consider Dr. Botnick`s student loan defense program if you attended Life University.
Definitely. A borrower's defense is the provision of the Code of Federal Regulations that allows a student to discharge a Direct Loans student loan if a school committed an act that undermined educational quality and violated state law. I am coordinating the development of chiropractic and other loan defenses.
Borrowers defenses can also be asserted as a defense against repayment in some states for individuals who have recent privately held guaranteed student loans.
Please email me at aljbotnick@yahoo.com if you would like to be put on a mailing list for when any defenses become available. Right now a defense for Life University graduating classes 1996-2000 is looking very favorable and should be available within three months. Given the false advertising by 80% of the other programs, a book should be available on how to constuct a loan defense within six months after I have finished evaluating how the US Department of Eduction is handling this defense.
At the very least, transfer loans into the Direct Loans program. Any money you pay towards the loan can be reimbused in that program if you win the borrowers defense.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #1 on May 14, 2006, 11:04am »
AN OPEN LETTER TO LIFE GRADUATES: NOW IS THE TIME
I want to take a moment to acknowledge all the hard work that Dr. Botnick has done researching the federal loan defense, but, more importantly:
I want to encourage all former Life graduates to contact Dr. Botnick and get involved with his loan defense. He needs and deserves your support.
We all know what it was REALLY like at Life. We know about the low academic standards, the misinformation, the accreditation violations, the way that Life demonized established healthcare standards and indoctrinated us into the cult of subluxations and overutilization.
If you don't stand up now, you may not get another chance to right the wrong and protect future students and patients from being misled.
Please contact Dr. Botnick and find out how you can get involved. You might be eligible for a defense against some of your student loans. But most important, you will be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
Don't be a victim; stand up for your right to an honest education that benefits patients.
As a former Life graduate myself, I know the mixed emotions you might feel getting involved with a loan defense. But you are not alone this time -- there is plenty of evidence that Life did violate accreditation standards and that our educations were subpar.
I plan to do something about it. I hope you'll join me.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #3 on Jun 10, 2006, 12:11pm »
Proudmarine,
I think you raise an excellent point. There were certainly many people who were not able to graduate from the program for a variety of different reasons. In the case of Life University, these could include the accreditation situation and overall academic environment which could be chaotic and disorganized. Interestingly, while I was at Life I remember a student who had a marine background who was quite aware of the abuses that were going on around him. He once told me that he found the academic experience there especially troubling given that he was used to working in system where integrity and honest work were rewarded, and words such as code and honour actually meant something. He missed being someplace where people worked together for the good of the mission instead of being placed into a corrupt system that sets up so many to fail and others to destroy each other, chiropractically speaking.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #4 on Jun 10, 2006, 12:44pm »
Grimace,
My real name is Tom S., do we know each other?
I was there from 98-2002, 03
I honestly could not take ALL of it anymore... Sid, the classes full of brainwashing garbage, fear and intimidation, clinic BS... Hearing about my friends getting jobs for 28K to start...
My Family has dis-owned me over the matter.
I'm still here near Atlanta nearly 3 years later, currently without a job, getting more and more depressed.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,542 Location: USA
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #5 on Jun 10, 2006, 1:12pm »
PM,
Everything you've said is common to Life grads. Don't feel alone.
>My Family has dis-owned me over the matter.
I had the same problem with most of my family. Unfortunately most people don't spend the time to understand the issues (cults, quackery, fraud) so it is much easier to blame the victim. It's best to concentrate on the family that supports you and don't waste time on the ones who don't.
>I'm still here near Atlanta nearly 3 years later, currently without a job, getting more and more depressed.
If you are low income seek help for the depression at free public clinics located in hospitals. Go to the local unemployment office and the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation and find out what programs are available to help. Generally they will give you a $4000 retraining grant and extend your unemployment benefits to go back to school. DVR handles depression. I recommend you seriously evaluate vocational schools in the area and seek out a short retraining course-say 6 months in a field that leads to certification. Have a friend or family member cosign a small loan if you need it. I currently attend training for echocardiography which takes 6 months and will pay $55,000 per year to start. In a health related field your past coursework will be an asset.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #6 on Jun 10, 2006, 1:58pm »
Proudmarine,
I think I might remember you. Perhaps you are the one I was thinking about in my previous post. Was that you who was in the Gamma computer lab that one time where they kicked us out because they were about to have a class in there? You might recall it was the nicest computer lab in the school, but we never got to enjoy it after they made it a computer lab for classes only. If that was you, just as you got kicked out you said: "Sid Williams is pissing on all of our heads!".
That was brilliant, I'll never forget that.
Allen's advice is good, don't lose hope. You may find you are fortunate to be in the Atlanta area. It is a place where a lot of opportunity exists to find many solid work opportunities. You might find the following site worth looking at.
You could also consider finding some kind of temp work while you are working towards retraining for a better career. It could definitely help give you a fresh perspective and raise your spirits to try something new, even if at first it means working in an area you may not consider ideal.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #7 on Jun 10, 2006, 9:52pm »
Hi PM,
Welcome to Chirotalk. I am yet another former Life student.
As Allen and Grimace said, you are definitely not alone. The issues you describe are quite common.
Quote:
Hearing about my friends getting jobs for 28K to start...
This is absolutely true. And those jobs are sometimes 7 days per week (when you're not in the office, you're out recruiting patients) with no health insurance or other benefits.
When you think of the other careers out there that pay more and have better benefits and don't require you to adopt a cult belief system and require much less training, chiropractic is just an amazingly bad career choice.
Be glad you didn't finish -- chiro associate was the most stressful, depressing job I've ever had. Ever.
Quote:
My Family has dis-owned me over the matter.
This is one of the hardest things to deal with in the "post chiropractic aftermath": trying to get your family to understand your decisions.
In my case, my family just didn't have the educational, scientific, or business background to understand what "chiropractic" really was. Many felt disappointed that I become a "doctor" and then chose to "waste my degree", etc.
But, of course, they did not realize that what I really gave up was a 28K slave associate job doing unethical, quacky, and possibly dangerous things.
Luckily, while they did not understand all the issues, they did have a "horse sense" that something about chiropractic was too good to be true. As the years have passed, my family is starting to see that the things I have told them are backed up by what they see around them.
For example, last year my mom had a guy come to fix her computer at work. They were chatting and my mom mentioned that I used to be a chiropractor. Small world -- turns out the guy repairing her computer was also a former Life chiro who had switched careers because he "liked computers more".
Or, as my dad recently said when I was talking to him about my time at Life: "Well, I always did think that Sid looked like a used car salesman." That comment made me laugh!
Please keep in touch. You will find a lot of great information here and a lot of great people who can relate to your situation. And don't give up on yourself, please, because the mess at Life was truly not your fault.
I will now do what Life U. should do to all its former students. I will apologize. As a Life alumnus, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience and I hope that things get better for you real soon.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #10 on Dec 6, 2007, 6:57pm »
I hope so Allen. I just want to thank you for being so proactive on this issue. Hopefully, we all can benefit from your hard work. I'm a Life grad, but how will it be for grads of other chiro schools?
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,542 Location: USA
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #14 on Dec 12, 2007, 2:29pm »
suicidal,
It would be up to someone who attended Logan to collect the evidence and prove that Logan did something that violated state law and damaged you enough to collect a recovery. The only violation that I know of for Logan is misleading advertising that exaggerates the benefits of chiropractic. Life's case is more extreme as they did a bait and switch scam where they didn't teach differential diagnosis.
For Logan it would appear that this would be a fraudulent inducement that would breach the enrollment contract for the school and entitle a student to major damages. I would encourage you to join Pre-paid Legal in your area (private message me for an enrollment form) and get in touch with a provider law firm in your state. They need to give you a referral to a lawyer in Missouri to talk to evaluate your chances because it is always the law in which the state the school resides. Message me as I can help provide some guidance through the process. I also intend to start a web site to sell Borrower's Defenses if this is successful and I am definitely interested in selling yours for you to others (with a commission to you) if it is successful.
SJ,
Thank you for the complement at the beginning of the thread. And yes it has been a lot of hard work.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #15 on Apr 28, 2008, 10:12am »
As much as I appreciate your efforts, I feel that all is lost.
The Lawyers have pretty much showed a nonchalant attitude that leads one to believe that they may be motivated for no action.
Fellow classmates and others theorize everything from pay-offs to Dr. Sids influence and money.
I have been active here and subscribed to all suggestions and ideas, none have proved to work or help.
I have lost ALL hope for anything to come of Life Univ. losing their accreditation.
I never graduated but, was in 14th quarter, passed clinic, parts 1, 2, 3 and PT of the boards when I finally quit.
My motivation to quit stemmed from everything from lies, cheating, unfounded claims, un-scientific brainwashing, clinic shenanigans, technique cultism, board review bs, and finally and most importantly the cost, in lieu of what I knew what current graduates were making.
This profession sucks, period.
I did not say that chiropractic, ( intentionally NOT capitalized) does not or has not helped someone...
it RUINED me though.
By the way, my Grandfather taught at Palmer when Drs Sid and Nell went through!!!
I'm proud of one thing and one thing only.
I was, am and always will be, a US Marine.
Gods speed. Tom
« Last Edit: Apr 28, 2008, 10:13am by proudmarine »
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #16 on Apr 29, 2008, 2:17am »
I'm truly sorry your case has not worked out, proudmarine. I really thought that something might happen as a result of the Life accreditation thing. I even called your lawyer in Marietta myself and gave his office my story.
It seems that the damage is done for all of us who went to Life. The only thing we can do at this point is discourage others from taking out loans (and hopefully help dry up Life's revenue stream of misinformed students). Chiro loans are basically a ball and chain that you can never pay off or get rid of.
The whole thing is such a scam when you consider that we are not qualified to diagnose, and would be a danger to patients had we decided to practice. Chiropractic is a total waste of healthcare and education dollars, a dirty trick designed to funnel money into the pockets of quacks and hucksters.
Here's hoping for the day when we see standard consumer protection laws applied to student loans, and the day when we see Life University School of Crap shut its doors for good (and not have the opportunity to scam any other students).
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,542 Location: USA
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #17 on Apr 29, 2008, 6:57am »
Everyone,
The main hold up has been with the pro-bono attorney doing the case. Apparrently he's overcommitted and keeps stalling. For me to switch attorneys would automatically cost $1500 and I'd rather not waste it until necessary. One state chiropractic board is investigating a complaint I filed against a Life grad which I hope may set a precedent in our favor, however the majority of states take the jurisdictional position that if the CCE says a program is good then it is good regardless of inappropriate accreditation, case closed, and any malpractice by graduates is their own problem.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #18 on Apr 29, 2008, 2:42pm »
To those who are interested in getting out the rat race, you can always work for the government. As I emailed Pround Marine, the Air Force is looking for a chiro in many locations. It is competitive, but those with military background, they get extra 20-30 points on their application. Here is the link...
Hope this helps everyone (who is still in chiropractic). I am still in it because I was lucky to get an excellent job with an ortho that pays me well; also, he allows me to treat patients as I see fit, with no pressure at all.
But not even the awesome US military can take the stupid out of chiropractic.
"Lieutenant Quackenbush, your soldier is here!"
Hey, I may go for that position. Let the military pay for my lifestyle, I've been paying for theirs for years. Plus, as a civilian, I won't be sent to the desert.
To those who are interested in getting out the rat race, you can always work for the government. As I emailed Pround Marine, the Air Force is looking for a chiro in many locations. It is competitive, but those with military background, they get extra 20-30 points on their application. Here is the link...
Hope this helps everyone (who is still in chiropractic). I am still in it because I was lucky to get an excellent job with an ortho that pays me well; also, he allows me to treat patients as I see fit, with no pressure at all.
Best of luck to the all or you!!!
Will
Umm maybe you didn't read that I never graduated. I'm also too old to go back in the service. Thanks for the advice but, you seem jaded.
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #22 on May 12, 2008, 9:22am »
Sorry Proudmarine...I guess I didn't read your story well enough. Best of luck to you anyway!
BTW, I only treat lower back and nect pain in the ortho office. Chiro is only 20% of my practice. With my ATC and CSCS backgound, I do more post surgery rehab (knees, shoulder, carpal tunnerl, etc). That is what I enjoy...it brings me back to being an athletic trainer at Va. Tech.
What kind of field are you interested in? Or going into?
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #23 on May 29, 2008, 8:02pm »
I was also a Life student during the late 90's and early 2000's. Unfortunately transferred to TCC and found the same crap....most of my loans though originated at Life.....please clear up something for me....I can remember people in my class who were taking the exact same classes as me and borrwoing the exact same amount of money that I was borrowing....BUT when it came to going to get our checks at financial aid from that fat so-called DC turned Fin Aid Director (you remember he used to teach MedTerm before that), we all would get different amounts..some varying by $300 -500..each and every quarter....besides that....what recourse do I have.....I have returned to school (borrowing from parents) to an LPN program .......help!!!!!!!!!
Re: Update for student loan defenses « Reply #24 on May 9, 2011, 2:19pm »
For those of you holding on to the idea that your loans may be forgiven - Don't. The secretary of Ed under Obama has said as much. He was asked whether or not loans may be forgiven if they are made to students who are, in effect, defrauded by an institution of higher learning. The example was more egregious than anything that has been mentioned here - Nursing students did clinicals in a museum; other students were lied to by admissions counselors. Please watch Frontline: College, Inc. It is available streaming on netflix, if you have it.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
I currently attend training for echocardiography which takes 6 months and will pay $55,000 per year to start. In a health related field your past coursework will be an asset.
Did this work out for you and did you get close to that income in only 6 months time? Most of the echo programs I looked at are 1 year minimum.
I currently attend training for echocardiography which takes 6 months and will pay $55,000 per year to start. In a health related field your past coursework will be an asset.
Did this work out for you and did you get close to that income in only 6 months time? Most of the echo programs I looked at are 1 year minimum.
The reason the program was short was because it was a certification course. I ended up withdrawing from the program early on. The subject matter was interesting conceptually and fun to do but the actual job is very repetitive and I wouldn't have liked it as a permanent career other than a way to earn some money.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Did this work out for you and did you get close to that income in only 6 months time? Most of the echo programs I looked at are 1 year minimum.
The reason the program was short was because it was a certification course. I ended up withdrawing from the program early on. The subject matter was interesting conceptually and fun to do but the actual job is very repetitive and I wouldn't have liked it as a permanent career other than a way to earn some money.
Do you have some sort of link you could PM me? MANY / MOST of the programs I've researched are a MIN one to two years (and these are CERT programs as well. The education time requirements and costs seem to keep going up much faster than any potential pay!
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Plus, as a civilian, I won't be sent to the desert.
I was also a Life student during the late 90's and early 2000's. Unfortunately transferred to TCC and found the same crap....most of my loans though originated at Life.....please clear up something for me....I can remember people in my class who were taking the exact same classes as me and borrwoing the exact same amount of money that I was borrowing....BUT when it came to going to get our checks at financial aid from that fat so-called DC turned Fin Aid Director (you remember he used to teach MedTerm before that), we all would get different amounts..some varying by $300 -500..each and every quarter....besides that....what recourse do I have.....I have returned to school (borrowing from parents) to an LPN program .......help!!!!!!!!!