Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,547 Location: USA
DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Point « Thread Started on Feb 18, 2011, 9:27am »
A member messaged me to let me know that the growth of Chirotalk's membership to 3000+ members is accelerating and I'd like to post a few comments to put this in perspective. In chiropractic I'm sure most have heard of the "hundreth monkey" effect. It goes like this, there was an island where monkeys used to eat potatoes unwashed. Well one monkey discovered potatoes tasted better washed and started washing them rather than continuing to eat dirt. His compatriot monkeys agreed and started washing theirs. A funny thing happened when 100 monkeys learned to wash potatoes-all the monkeys on the island, even those who never interacted with the group, were now washing their potatoes.
Now before you think this is too farfetched, current thought in physics is that consciousness is nonlocalized, it forms the basis of both matter and consciousness and is not bound by the limitations of matter. So there exists this intuitive communication we all have with the spiritual field that holds all consciousness and ideas.(Goswami, 1995) As an example of this field, several scientific discoveries, including calculus, were simultaneously discovered by different scientists with no knowledge of each other.
My point is that Chirotalk's members are growing. 3,000 is nearly 5% of all of the chiropractors in the United States. This is the largest chiropractic reform movement that has ever existed! At its highest membership level, the NACM only had 1 or 2%.
Not only that, but we are seeing huge changes across the professional spectrum. We see PT and DO manipulators recognizing that manipulatable lesions, aka subluxations, are diagnostic illusions. Outside the USA, the UK has completely overturned the idea that quackery can constitute a health care profession by ruling that subluxations are completely bogus. New Mexico recently ruled to open up the scope of chiropractic. And chiropractic victims groups like Victim's of Chiropractic Abuse (VOCA) are as the strongest they've ever been.
This is an exciting time to be a skeptic, and a very scary time to be a chiropractor.
(Amit Goswami, PhD. The Self-Aware Universe-how consciousness creates the material world. G.P. Putnam's Sons. NY, NY. 1995.)
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #1 on Feb 18, 2011, 2:32pm »
But Allen, every Chiro organization and management group is telling me this is a GREAT time to be a chiropractor! Oddly enough I have been hearing this same phrase for the past 10 years, and nothing seemed to change in that time...
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,547 Location: USA
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #2 on Feb 18, 2011, 6:32pm »
Well that's really not true because we've all seen the fear tactic of declining earnings used by management companies. But as for professional organizations remember, they are selling and don't want to scare the students off.
Wait staff aren't allowed to tell customers that they don't like a dish either.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #3 on Feb 22, 2011, 8:43pm »
One year ago, HuffPost College launched with a series called "Majoring in Debt," featuring the stories of nine students and graduates carrying massive student loan burdens on their shoulders. There was Sara Tobin, a Tulane student who said that the value of her childhood home was less than her loan debt. There were Dan Olson and Evan Young, a couple whose combined debt topped $120,000. And there was Sonia Galindo, a 47-year-old graduate of the University of Texas-El Paso, who said the only answer to her loans was "a miracle."
The average student debt currently stands at $24,000, but for many of our readers, it is much more. Below, read three students' stories of how much debt they accrued in order to get an education. And follow up with two of our original Majoring in Debt participants -- one year later.
And if debt is an issue you're dealing with, add your story below.
How much are you in debt from the cost your education? Are lenders chasing after you or raising your interest rates? Did you benefit from financial aid?
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #4 on Feb 28, 2011, 7:43pm »
I just joined chirotalk today and this is the first time I've been involved in an online forum about chiropractic. Let it be known that I'm a third-year chiropractic student at one of the so-called "mixer"/"evidence-based" schools (I don't care for either term) and I probably have a perspective on chiropractic not espoused by many inside the profession--or many outside it, either.
Your hundred monkeys analogy is interesting. I would like to see chiropractic both more generally accepted by the public and more internally policed by its members. In the words of one of my mentors, who has contributed extensively to the body of chiropractic research (not junk science, but real research, mind you), "Chiropractic is a profession of mediocrity that happens to have a pretty good delivery vehicle." I would hate to see the whole thing sunk because a significant proportion of DCs espouse (and even preach) a bunch of old theories that were obsolete 90 years ago. I have been labeled as the guy in my school who "should've gone to med school" because I have such an interest and passion for things beyond adjusting so-called "subluxations" (there I go again with my issues with terminology). The problem isn't that spinal manipulation isn't beneficial for some folks, but that chiropractic, just like medicine, osteopathy, or ANY other healthcare profession, is driven by theories, egos, and money, rather than sensible patient-centered care.
Respondents on this site are quick to point out the whack-job 'quackopractors' who are hucksters and charlatans (and given the URL and theme, I can't fault them), but let's remember that medicine has its share of them as well. The problems may appear to be on opposite ends of the spectrum (chiropractors tend to be desperate for patients to keep coming back while most MDs don't seem to want to see their patients, or look them in the eye, or get to know them) but the underlying causes are common to human nature, with intellectual laziness and (in the worst offenders) narcissism being culprits.
My perspective is a little bit different because of how I got into this. I was raised in a family where Mom went to chiropractors, as well as MDs, all the time, so I was familiar with healthcare providers, probably having been to well over a hundred offices by the time I was 18. When I developed chronic health problems at age 14, it wasn't my chiropractor I saw, but my pediatrician, who wrote me off, saying, "Kids your age don't have these problems." After a string of MDs, nutritionists, a DO, and a few years of being my own doctor (based largely on the DO's humble recommendation), it was a chiropractor who cared enough to really invest the time in me. I didn't have the money to pay his fees, so I dropped out of school and started working for him. He was a Harrison-worshiping CBP doctor who rose to a prominent position among our friends at Maximized Living before I quit his office suddenly one day as I lectured him regarding the discrepancy between how a professional and a Christian acts and how he acted. His grandiose God-talk and his lack of nerve interference weren't enough to keep him out of trouble, as last I heard of him was on the news after it was found he stole over a million dollars (not related to his practice).
This wasn't a huge surprise, because I discovered his character and the character of the Brotherhood of Ben Lerner after a few months of employment. Exit from the cultish group was a little traumatic but I've recovered just fine, and I don't hate chiropractors nor do I need therapy. Although the words "Christian chiropractor" make me wince, I am a Christian and will soon be a chiropractor but my ethic is first to my Lord (to whom I will have to answer for my actions, words, and thoughts, which is a scary thought), then to my patients, and then to my profession. It is for the latter that I write this. Ironically, it was while I working for the naughty chiropractor that he came across a publication that transformed my life. Medicine, after all, was the profession that helped me, and I was able to meet an MD who revolutionized my philosophy toward "evidence-based medicine" (great concept, garbage term) and ethical, patient-based care. Ironically, this MD had an experience with my old boss the DC and was very cold toward me until learning that I had cut off communication with the bad man years ago. He then went on to give me the keys to understanding an illness that has yet to be accepted by medicine at large (narrow-minded, they can be) but has a wealth of data which drive his treatment. Theories are just the gravy.
My point is this. Chiropractors are no better or worse than any other doctors. At best, we treat symptoms, e.g., pain, stiff or frozen joints, functional loss, numbness/tingling, while also addressing potentially causative factors, something that the best MDs do. At worst, we are a profession with a split personality that has some portal-of-entry docs diagnosing and treating disorders that a patient's MD can understand and appreciate (since they generally don't have patience or success with back problems). And, at worst, MDs are a bunch of narrow-minded, pompous white jackets who dispense antibiotics as indiscriminately as quackopractors disseminate adjustments (okay, so chiropractors can be narrow-minded as well, if they don't recognize diagnosing disease as important, but even most traditional chiropractors aren't that loony). One profession is ruled by anarchy and civil war, the other by totalitarian bureaucracy. Perhaps the real winners will be the PTs, who have recently lobbied for (and won) rights to manipulate. Ask the APTA why they worked so hard to crack bones if you want to question the value of manipulation, or the 900 studies done on SMT and low back pain (I know there are quality issues there, but there are quality issues with the "objective" (biased!) drug studies, too, or the cholesterol studies that NHANES turned into a mass hysteria over a biomarker of relatively low importance to most people). I'm not repeating somebody else's opinion; I've read the original studies myself, analyzed the methods, critiqued the conclusions, and invite others to do the same. Many of the problems you have with chiropractic are endemic to medicine.
You're right, this is a scary time to be a chiropractor, but, frankly, it's a scary time for anyone in the healthcare profession who has loans to pay off. (What part of the healthcare budget will get cut when healthcare reform simultaneously "cuts costs," expands coverage, and pads the coffers of influential white males in Washington?? Probably the 21% spent on paying providers. Watch insurance reimbursements fall.) If unbiased individuals (and I know there is no such reality, but we can try) can collaborate to "cast out false information," to echo Aldous Huxley, perhaps the 100th monkey of chiropractic could turn out to be a promoter of the intraprofessional solidarity, interprofessional collaboration, and superior patient care.
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 119 Location: Chiro La La Land
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #5 on Mar 1, 2011, 5:08am »
"You're right, this is a scary time to be a chiropractor, but, frankly, it's a scary time for anyone in the healthcare profession who has loans to pay off. (What part of the healthcare budget will get cut when healthcare reform simultaneously "cuts costs," expands coverage, and pads the coffers of influential white males in Washington??"
Welcome to Chirotalk...You could expect the entire chiro profession to be completely cut out of national healthcare in 2014....At this point it really doesn't matter if your an honest chiro or not...the whole profession is going down....the only chiros making money now are the ones who are scaring the hell out of their patients into lifetime care...Insurance is going bye bye, believe me.
Being as though you're a third year student this is probably not anything you'd want to hear. Right now you're still in that "Chiro baby bubble" and hearing all the chiro "rah rah" about how great everything will be once you graduate while you cash in those huge student loan checks every few months.
I don't write any of this to insult you. I really feel sorry for you. My advice to you is to skp school tomorrow and spend a few hours at chirotalk and really learn "How deep the rabbit hole goes" in this "profession."
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,547 Location: USA
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #6 on Mar 1, 2011, 6:46am »
Greetings HLA,
It seems that you haven’t grasped the systemic problems present in chiropractic: flawed biomechanics (Diversified/Gonstead listings), biomechanical oversimplification (CBP) and inadequate scope. This has caused you to fall into the rut of being a chiropractic apologist who uses the bad apple excuse (subtype "mixer schools are better than straight DC because of more diagnosis training") to make sense of chiropractic’s woes. It’s an understandable mistake.
Chiropractors are distinct from medicine in that practice is founded in puffery and misrepresentation-namely the belief that causative factors are being addressed when they really aren’t. While you are being vague, I will clarify your implication-you imply that biomechanical problems are being addressed and they aren’t-not through the accepted chiropractic treatment methods employed by chiropractors and taught by accredited schools.
Read the FAQs in the welcome section for more information.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #7 on Mar 1, 2011, 10:29am »
hla4353 said
"Respondents on this site are quick to point out the whack-job 'quackopractors' who are hucksters and charlatans (and given the URL and theme, I can't fault them), but let's remember that medicine has its share of them as well. The problems may appear to be on opposite ends of the spectrum (chiropractors tend to be desperate for patients to keep coming back while most MDs don't seem to want to see their patients, or look them in the eye, or get to know them) but the underlying causes are common to human nature, with intellectual laziness and (in the worst offenders) narcissism being culprits."
The references placed here related to the hucksters and charalatans are placed to show that they are so far out there and radical with thier assumptions on what is healthcare that it baffles the mind... I have worked with quite a few doctors and surgeons over the years and I can honestly say I have never seen that type of bafoonery practiced by any MD. Your comment on this is sweeping and not in the least factual...you are comparing apples to oranges. There is no group more willing to stoop to deciet and qwackery as much as the chiropractor save for perhaps some naturopaths I have met...
You have also indicated that "most" MD's don't seem to want to see their patients, or look them in the eye, or get to know them) but the underlying causes are common to human nature, with intellectual laziness and (in the worst offenders) narcissism being culprits."
It is not an easy task becoming an MD but for you to say "most" MD's I would like to know how many you know...apparently you know "most" of them...hmmm yet another sweeping statement based on what facts? Is your school feeding you this information?
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #8 on Mar 2, 2011, 2:06am »
@orthican: Yes, it was a generalization about MDs, but I said they don't SEEM to want to see their patients--and I'm saying that based not primarily on my observations but what I've heard from laypeople (and not at my chiropractic school). My statements are no more sweeping than your grand claim that "there is no group more willing to stoop to deciet and qwackery as much as the chiropractor." (Although you may likewise be basing that on the opinions of your circle of friends.)
@happyhippo: Actually, my school has very little rah-rah. The few cheerleaders aren't quite mocked (except perhaps my ones such as myself), but our administration generally acknowledges that paying off student loans isn't easy. I know some honest chiropractors who are making good money but they have had to work hard to do it, and one in particular is an outstanding clinician. You seem bitter about the whole thing, and I'm not sure where you get your opinion about chiropractic getting cut by 2014, but I and a small number of intelligent, caring individuals are fighting for change from within. We need our hundredth monkey.
and at Dr Botnick: I am the guy who refuses to pander to the listing nonsense that still gets taught at my school (and my clinician has no problem with my refusal to write "PL" and "open wedge" on objective findings), but, fortunately, our technique director himself teaches how nonsensical it all is. I reject traditional listings in favor of provocation listings. Read the works of Robin McKenzie to get a flavor of this idea, which isn't something you see on an x-ray or feel with your fingers, but a posture or movement that reproduces or ameliorates symptoms. For example, if a patient comes in with sacroiliac pain, one way to "get a listing" would be to take a pair of SOT blocks and place them under the pelvis in different positions. If the patient shows a strong preference for a position, with less pain, for example, then blocking them in that position is a sensible thing to do. Data-rich? No. But one doesn't need data to tell him that parachutes save the lives of men who fall out of planes. Or that giving antibiotics to somebody who looks sick might make them better. (Although it turns out that data has a lot to say about possible effects of indiscriminate use of the latter, and that's no chiro-spin, that's JAMA stuff right there.)
With regard to my "vague" implication, I don't know what gets taught the great bastions of technique and philosophy, e.g., Life, and other such schools, but I suspect it's probably pretty lame "move this bone from A to B," "turn the power on," "take your keys out of your pocket so your female patients don't think you're getting turned on by a side-posture adjustment." Some of the men I study under are teaching methods that work, have data to support it (yes, reliability AND validity), and is nothing as theoretically insipid as having to do with nerve interference or as meaningless as Don Harrison's Arc of Life. Research in neurophysiology is burgeoning; it is also an exciting time to be a chiropractor! Type II mechanoreceptors (and who knows what others?) appear to be players in explaining the efficacy of SMT. Golgi tendon organs are what we are influencing, not the sympathetic nervous system. Manipulation, mobilization, stretching (the dozens of ways), myofascial release therapies, and ultimately specific exercise programs tailored so that patients can replace passive care with active care--this goes beyond subluxation as the cause of everything from dandruff to Britney Spears's breakdown and enters a world familiar to physiatrists, DPTs, DOs in Europe, and, provided the DC can take proper notes like an adult and write a professional, typo-free letter to the patient's GP, maybe eventually the world of family practice.
I did take a brief look at the FAQ section...and I will mention two things before going and working on an ergonomic assessment. (No metaphysics there!) We could each stand behind our favorite peer-reviewed, published paper and argue over CVA a la World War I trench warfare but courts are upholding Cassidy's study, and they have good reason. His methods are far better and while his conclusions are up to interpretation, the results stand: chiropractors don't cause strokes through spinal manipulation. As for biomechanic relevance, Cooperstein recently performed a study that found that motion palpation was reliable--researchers were just using the wrong statistic. He designed a study that used continuous variables, rather than discrete, which makes sense considering the continuous nature of the spine; vertebrae don't exist in a vacuum.
While I agree with your point about misrepresentation about causative factors, there are plenty of MDs who are puffed up as well. But when you have the AMA behind your back and shows like House, MD making medicine sexy (and shows like Two and a Half Men making chiropractors look like buffoons)...well. Changing the mind of the public might be tough, but it can't be harder than changing the minds of chiropractors (or the minds of members on this discussion board).
I may be a "chiropractic apologist" in a "baby bubble" (or I may be an open-minded, yet skeptical individual who is willing to take my own profession to task while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater), but it seems to me that my opposition here are mainly those who have had a very negative experience with chiropractic, chiropractic school, and/or chiropractic practice. In research, we might call that sampling bias, if looking at the range of replies. Here, I call it being outnumbered! (But even within my own profession, I am outnumbered.) Ah, the lonely life of the honest doctor...
By the way, I don't have references at hand comparing it to chiropractic, but cheating at med school is second only to cheating at business school...with around 40% of med students violating the educational ethics code. You are correct, orthican, it is not an easy task becoming an MD.
I am the guy who refuses to pander to the listing nonsense that still gets taught at my school (and my clinician has no problem with my refusal to write "PL" and "open wedge" on objective findings), but, fortunately, our technique director himself teaches how nonsensical it all is. I reject traditional listings in favor of provocation listings. Read the works of Robin McKenzie to get a flavor of this idea, which isn't something you see on an x-ray or feel with your fingers, but a posture or movement that reproduces or ameliorates symptoms. For example, if a patient comes in with sacroiliac pain, one way to "get a listing" would be to take a pair of SOT blocks and place them under the pelvis in different positions. If the patient shows a strong preference for a position, with less pain, for example, then blocking them in that position is a sensible thing to do. Data-rich? No. But one doesn't need data to tell him that parachutes save the lives of men who fall out of planes. Or that giving antibiotics to somebody who looks sick might make them better. (Although it turns out that data has a lot to say about possible effects of indiscriminate use of the latter, and that's no chiro-spin, that's JAMA stuff right there.)
Sure that works for acute care, but it is useless for biomechanical assessment-the stated foundation of chiropractic. What you advocate doing isn't chiropractic, it's physical therapy.
Quote:
Some of the men I study under are teaching methods that work, have data to support it (yes, reliability AND validity), and is nothing as theoretically insipid as having to do with nerve interference or as meaningless as Don Harrison's Arc of Life. Research in neurophysiology is burgeoning; it is also an exciting time to be a chiropractor! Type II mechanoreceptors (and who knows what others?) appear to be players in explaining the efficacy of SMT. Golgi tendon organs are what we are influencing, not the sympathetic nervous system. Manipulation, mobilization, stretching (the dozens of ways), myofascial release therapies, and ultimately specific exercise programs tailored so that patients can replace passive care with active care--this goes beyond subluxation as the cause of everything from dandruff to Britney Spears's breakdown and enters a world familiar to physiatrists, DPTs, DOs in Europe, and, provided the DC can take proper notes like an adult and write a professional, typo-free letter to the patient's GP, maybe eventually the world of family practice.
Except this model doesn't work because functional methods never release people from care whether it be exercise programs or manipulation. Functional problems always arise secondary to a pre-existing postural problems. So while Harrison's (CBP) system is an oversimplification, he was correct in placing biomechanics first.
Quote:
I did take a brief look at the FAQ section...and I will mention two things before going and working on an ergonomic assessment. (No metaphysics there!) We could each stand behind our favorite peer-reviewed, published paper and argue over CVA a la World War I trench warfare but courts are upholding Cassidy's study, and they have good reason. His methods are far better and while his conclusions are up to interpretation, the results stand: chiropractors don't cause strokes through spinal manipulation.
Given the flaws in Cassidy's study you can't make that statement, a few monkey court trials notwithstanding. Personally I don't understand why you are defending neck manipulation at all because it contradicts so many of your other points. Proprioceptor stimulation is easily achieved with mechanical manipulation instruments with much less force. Next, many of the techniques you criticize as being unscientific are used as the basis of care without showing medical necessity which puts patients at risk for stroke unnecessarily. Finally, chiropractors favor manipulation as a first resort rather than a last resort-probably because that makes them the most money.
Quote:
As for biomechanic relevance, Cooperstein recently performed a study that found that motion palpation was reliable--researchers were just using the wrong statistic. He designed a study that used continuous variables, rather than discrete, which makes sense considering the continuous nature of the spine; vertebrae don't exist in a vacuum.
Are you serious? First you slam MP then you defend it by ignoring the entire validity issue? Reliability is only part of the equation. Motion Palpation assessment positives are often diagnostic illusions if initial position is not taken into account.
Quote:
While I agree with your point about misrepresentation about causative factors, there are plenty of MDs who are puffed up as well. But when you have the AMA behind your back and shows like House, MD making medicine sexy (and shows like Two and a Half Men making chiropractors look like buffoons)...well. Changing the mind of the public might be tough, but it can't be harder than changing the minds of chiropractors (or the minds of members on this discussion board).
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
@orthican: Yes, it was a generalization about MDs, but I said they don't SEEM to want to see their patients--and I'm saying that based not primarily on my observations but what I've heard from laypeople (and not at my chiropractic school). My statements are no more sweeping than your grand claim that "there is no group more willing to stoop to deciet and qwackery as much as the chiropractor." (Although you may likewise be basing that on the opinions of your circle of friends.)
Well I'll let you in on something...my statement regarding this is not so grand as it is based in reality. The statement I made is based on what I have personally experienced working with chiropractors and on what I have been told over the years by patients, doctors, surgeons, and my collegues who also run into similar issues. My friends are not even part of the equation. I would not write it if it were not coming from reliable sources. You have a different opinion based on your perception of these things because of where you sit and your choice of study. I would honestly only expect that there would be bias. I'm not here to try and convince you or anyone of anything...I merely seek the truth in things and like prodding for answers.
Tell me, what part of chiropractic involves telepathic communication with the painful body part? I have a guy in town who does that. How effective do you think electrodermal diagnosis is in finding food allergies? I have a guy in town who does that. What do you think of using activator protocol for all treatments? I have two guys in town who do that. What do you think of someone who does not fill out paperwork on wcb claims and does not communicate with the other allied health providers (me) even when asked? What do you think about using detoxifying footbaths to cleans the body of toxins? I have two ladies in town who advertize this. What do you think of applied kinesiology? I have three in town tha do this.
All these individuals are doctors of chiropractic. Whether or not it is part of your curriculum or not they are doing it. Ask yourself why . Then tell me why ...I'd like to know....
[quote author=hla4353 board=outlook thread=5159 post=40040 time=1299049609]All these individuals are doctors of chiropractic. Whether or not it is part of your curriculum or not they are doing it. Ask yourself why . Then tell me why ...I'd like to know....
I can predict a bad apple defense right now Orthican and it holds no weight with me. All of these wacky techniques are taught in recognized continuing education programs: Applied Kinesiology, meridian therapy, Activator, whatever. This is chiropractic. There is no denying it.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #12 on Mar 2, 2011, 6:54pm »
Chiropractors lose big one in Kentucky
FRANKFORT — A state House committee made substantial changes Wednesday to a bill that would allow chiropractors to collect more from insurers — a move that the bill's sponsor said "guts" the bill.
The House Banking and Insurance Committee unanimously approved the substitute version of Senate Bill 75, which would limit the number of co-payments insurance companies can charge customers for a trip to the chiropractor.
Sen. Tom Buford's bill, which was supported by the Kentucky Association of Chiropractors, would have allowed chiropractors to bill and be reimbursed more by insurers for certain medical treatments.
The association says on its Web site that in 2004, insurance reimbursement for chiropractors was reduced by 38 percent from the largest insurer in Kentucky. Since that time, most other major insurers in the state followed suit with reductions "to stay competitive."
Chiropractors are earning less today than they earned 10 years ago, the association says.
The House committee changed the bill so that it would restrict insurance companies from charging more than one co-payment or coinsurance from the patient during a visit to a chiropractic office, even if more than one procedure is performed during the visit.
The chairman of the House committee, Rep. Jeff Greer, D-Brandenburg, said the panel's version of SB 75 "is now a good thing for consumers and the chiropractic industry."
Buford, R-Nicholasville, said it is the House committee's prerogative to change the bill, but "it really doesn't benefit the plight of the chiropractor on insurance reimbursements."
The senator said he will talk to officials of the chiropractor association before deciding whether he will try to get it changed on the House floor back to its original form.
The Senate approved Buford's bill Feb. 28 on a 34-4 vote and sent it to the House.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #13 on Mar 2, 2011, 7:01pm »
Rock Hill woman wins $800K in case against chiropractor By Kimberly Dick - kdick@heraldonline.com
ROCK HILL --
A jury ordered a Rock Hill chiropractor to pay more than $800,000 after evidence showed fraudulent records may have been created to conceal part of a woman's treatment performed hours before she was hospitalized.
Cheryl Chandler sought relief for minor back pain from a chiropractor after seeing a family physician in June 2006. The Rock Hill woman, then 53, said she had an aching pain that continued down her leg.
Chandler said she heard a chiropractor could provide some relief, so she went to see Narry Beaver of Beaver Chiropractic and Spinal Rehab in Rock Hill.
"However, after my first treatment, I was feeling a little worse," she said. "I had difficulty sleeping."
Because Chandler was in pain, she had her husband take her for a follow-up treatment the next day.
Hours after that treatment, she was admitted to the hospital with "intractable pain," and given morphine. An MRI revealed the need to do surgery to repair the disc in her back.
"It was the most excruciating pain I've ever had," Chandler said. "I ended up in the hospital with a ruptured disc. Following surgery, I've never been like I was before. I'm always in some measure of back pain."
Beaver, who left the office in Rock Hill and has been practicing in Cheraw for the past four years, said his treatment didn't cause the woman's herniated disc.
"It was impossible from what I did," Beaver said. "I saw the patient twice. She was in a lot of pain. I didn't cause it. This was just one patient who already had a problem."
Chandler sued Narry Beaver and the chiropractic office for alleged malpractice in 2008 on the grounds they failed to fully evaluate her medical history, perform a proper physical exam, take proper X-rays and were acting outside the scope of chiropractic practice.
After a weeklong trial in Circuit Court, a York County jury last week awarded Chandler $500,000 in punitive damages and $305,000 in actual damages.
Punitive damages, which are usually in excess of provable injuries, are awarded in cases where the defendant's actions are "egregiously insidious."
These types of damages, which are intended to punish the responsible party and deter others from committing the same acts, in medical malpractice cases in South Carolina are rare, said Chandler's attorney Robert Phillips.
Andrew Cole, an attorney who represented Beaver Chiropractic declined, to comment on the case.
Two medical records
After her surgery, Chandler's husband called the chiropractor's office to alert them of her hospitalization and cancel her remaining appointments.
Chandler said she later decided to see a lawyer, and obtained her medical records from Beaver Chiropractic.
The record released to her stated the doctor gave her a side-posture adjustment - where the chiropractor positions the patient on his or her side, then applies a quick and precise manipulative thrust to the misaligned vertebra - during the first day of treatment, but not the second.
Because the adjustment is an invasive procedure, the plaintiff alleges it was left off the treatment records from the day she was hospitalized to possibly avoid showing causation.
That record also misspelled Chandler's first name.
A separate record, obtained through Phillips, listed the adjustment on both days as well as other details missing in the records released to Chandler.
"Evidence showed the chiropractor altered his records on his treatment from the day she went to the hospital," Phillips said. "Doctors have to be able to rely on accurate medical records. Altering medical records could put the public's health at risk."
Dr. Reuben Orr, who has owned Beaver Chiropractic since before Chandler was treated, said a "software glitch" led to the dual records.
"The discrepancy with the records is an issue with the software and how it was inputted," Orr said. "Unfortunately, I wasn't able to testify to the difference in the records."
He added that chiropractic treatment is safe.
"Dr. Beaver has practiced more than 30 years without other similar allegations of injuries being caused," Orr said. "I've practiced 10 years, and I haven't had a problem before then or since then."
Chandler said her life has never been the same. She can't ride bikes, hike or camp with family like she used to. She struggles to play on the floor with her grandkids or pick them up.
"You just have to completely change your life," she said. "You have to make adjustments to everything. You have to pay attention to what you do so you don't aggravate it."
She's said she's had eight steroid shots and been in continuing therapy. She said she might need another surgery.
"Hopefully, in the future there's going to be something that will put my back to how it was," Chandler said. "It's ever-present pain." Kimberly Dick 803-329-4082
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #14 on Mar 2, 2011, 7:27pm »
And for those who say that chiropractors don't claim to cure cancer! Of course he only claims he is "fighting cancer".
York County Chiropractor is helping fight cancer Dr. Kevin Owens is offering free radical screenings
5:37 p.m. EST, March 2, 2011
West Manchester Township, York County — A York County chiropractor is helping fight cancer. Dr. Kevin Owens, with the Chiropractic Athletic Center in West Manchester Township, is using a new machine that measures free radicals in a patient's body. It's up & running at his office and simply requires a person to blow into a tube for about 30 seconds, then the machine will read the free radical level.
Numbers between 300 and 900 are considered normal, but the lower, the better. Free radicals can cause normal cells in the body to become deformed & possibly become cancerous.
"I think everyone should take it but especially people that smoke, people that have high history of cancer in their families, people that are exposed to toxins are the people who should get a test and then try to make a change to see if it will come down," says Dr. Owens.
There are ways to reduce your free radical number. Exercise, vitamins and limiting processed foods are often the first steps. Also, quitting smoking is important.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #15 on Mar 2, 2011, 7:44pm »
And last but most certainly not least
Chiropractors give a leg up to New Mexico health care By Milan Simonich / Santa Fe Bureau Posted: 02/26/2011 01:00:00 AM MST
SANTA FE - New Mexico needs more primary-care medical providers, and select chiropractors moved a step closer Friday to qualifying for those jobs.
The House Judiciary Committee voted 9-6 for a bill that would allow advanced practice chiropractic physicians to prescribe and inject drugs, and to perform diagnostic procedures.
Dr. Grant La Farge, a pediatric cardiologist and medical director of the New Mexico Medical Board, testified that his organization had no opposition to the bill. But numerous chiropractors did, saying a move toward primary care went against the "drugless healing philosophy" of their practice.
They questioned how chiropractors would even qualify because just one of the country's 18 chiropractic colleges offers the necessary training outlined in the bill.
Brian Hesser, a chiropractor in Las Cruces, supported the bill. He said it would create opportunities for those chiropractors who want to obtain a master's degree in a medical field.
He said he is studying, in part through on-line courses, for a master's degree as a family nurse practitioner from Samford University in Alabama.
Hesser said he already has limited authority to prescribe medication because of his training as an advanced practice chiropractic physician. Much of his work is in sports medicine.
The bill is sponsored by House Speaker Ben Lujan, D-Santa Fe. It is HB 127.
Santa Fe Bureau Chief Milan Simonich can be reached at msimonich@-tnmnp.com or 505-820-6898. His blog is at nmcapitolreport.com.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #17 on Mar 2, 2011, 10:57pm »
I'm all for chiros moving on to become FNPs and PAs... but the problem is the chiros / fnp / pa who still preach "subluxation"... talk about a confulsed medical professional...
I'm all for chiros moving on to become FNPs and PAs... but the problem is the chiros / fnp / pa who still preach "subluxation"... talk about a confulsed medical professional...
I'm a minimalist dom. For chiropractic to survive it must have something unique that it does well. The world doesn't need another WSCC physical therapy DPM clone doing functional rehabilitation. To effect this chiropractic must first research better ways of effecting biomechanical cures, open up the scope of practice to allow use of necessary tools and finally create trust by outlawing ineffective and questionable methods. If these three things can't be accomplished in this order then chiropractic will never prosper.
Notice that by not doing this we have the converse situation, chiropractors are:
1. Inferior clones of DPTs (don't use clinical prediction rules). 2. Don't have a scope of practice to effectively treat biomechanical problems. 3. Have low credibility because of endemic quackery.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
By the way, I don't have references at hand comparing it to chiropractic, but cheating at med school is second only to cheating at business school...with around 40% of med students violating the educational ethics code. You are correct, orthican, it is not an easy task becoming an MD.
No of course you would not have references eluding to that. I'm sure though that you have talked to many MD's to find this out............ Or, perhaps someone at your school made mention of it...
So.... Cheating at med school is second only to that of business school? I'd love a link to this info that is not written by a chiropractor...
"The kind of disease depends on what nerves are too tense or too slack......." D. D. Palmer
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 305 Location: Toggle Drop, Florida
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #21 on Mar 3, 2011, 5:15pm »
Having been affiliated with three Medical Schools in my career, I find this "reported" level of cheating to be very hard to believe. Penalties are harsh, especially during the two clinical years when cheating is looked upon as undermining appropriate patient care and a reflection of character and professional integrity.
Who in their right mind would risk expulsion from medical school? Grades in Medical School really don't matter that much. You still get an "M.D." as long as you get at least passing grades. ....Cheating occurs among people trying TO GET IN Medical School.....once you're in, you're in.
So then, doesn't it seem that cheating in Medical School is illogical?
I'm all for chiros moving on to become FNPs and PAs... but the problem is the chiros / fnp / pa who still preach "subluxation"... talk about a confulsed medical professional...
and would give PAs and NPs a bad rap.
I'm wondering if the NP programs some DCs are doing actually require them to do bedside nursing first.
Having been affiliated with three Medical Schools in my career, I find this "reported" level of cheating to be very hard to believe. Penalties are harsh, especially during the two clinical years when cheating is looked upon as undermining appropriate patient care and a reflection of character and professional integrity.
Who in their right mind would risk expulsion from medical school? Grades in Medical School really don't matter that much. You still get an "M.D." as long as you get at least passing grades. ....Cheating occurs among people trying TO GET IN Medical School.....once you're in, you're in.
So then, doesn't it seem that cheating in Medical School is illogical?
OTOH, has anyone ever seen someone expelled from chiropractic school for cheating? I saw a lot of cheating going on, but when it was pointed out, nothing ever happened. It seemed to have the administration's tacit approval.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #28 on Mar 3, 2011, 8:53pm »
In my opinion, chiro skools rarely if ever expel students... why would they... they would lose out on possible 100,000 worth of tuition... the most ironic thing about chiro skool in my opinion is the fact that you have to work for the school and bring patients in... this was by far the biggest shock to me while i was training to be a "doctor." i did know some people in skool that were caught cheating... nothing happened to them...what a great profession to be a part of... that and the fact that irene gold basically admits that they have the board exams which do not pertain to reality at all... any test written by real chiros is laughable at best.
Re: DC Skepticism approaches "Hundreth Monkey" Poi « Reply #29 on Mar 3, 2011, 9:01pm »
Of course, the one exception to chiropractic schools' toleration of cheating is when it costs them Money. Giving a patient a discount at the clinic will get you expelled: http://www.chirobase.org/08Legal/bernet.html
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