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May 21, 2013, 2:56am

Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum :: Jeers :: Jeers from chiropractors :: Discrimination and slander?

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Topic: Discrimination and slander? (Read 572 times)

glennm
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Re: CBP in 2011 still terminal
« Thread Started on Feb 16, 2012, 3:26am »

alan: Just joined your chirotalk group. I am perplexed as to why you would expend so much effort engaged in dubious broad accusations and presumptions. I have been a chiropractor for many years while also teaching at a local college, working in urgent care clinics, and currently work in a large medical clinic (staff of 50 plus). My professional life is fluid. I keep it that way.

That I too take issue with many things within my profession, doesn't extend to include an indictment of an entire field.
I am bemused by your ranting. Have you nothing better to do in your spare time? You simply sound bitter.

While I may be amused by a lack of substantiation for much of the early 20th century chiropractic premises, I also find many temporally sound and in fact prescient. One doesn't need to venture far into the medical community to find financial abuse and clinical absurdity that remain sub threshold in the broader culture because medicine is the reigning paradigm. In other words, like most human endeavors, it's deeply flawed as well. It is simply better insulated from criticism by its cultural positioning.

If chiropractic suffers from anything, it suffers from the lack foresight to more stridently distance itself from foolish claims and antiquated theory. That has been its Achilles heel as well as a failure to more fully merge into mainstream health care, as I see things. Medicine does so more quickly yet clings to the quaint Dr. Welby myth in order to perpetuate its own profit centers. Are you blinded by their mythology simply because in balance more good than harm comes from their system? Do you hold the same bigoted views of other groups within your communty or are you feeling self satisfied by clinging to a regime of self abuse, because, you DO state that you are a chiropractor. Nothing so insufferable as a reformed alcoholic, drug addict, religious or political convert on a rant. Nothing more self righteous. Lighten up.

Your constant use of the words quack and quackery is nothing more than playground slang brought into the arena of slander. Try expanding your vocabulary. Quackery is a trait that is the sole provence of no single group. I would hope that you see the irony of Gorsky's quote....really.

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Allen Botnick DC
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Re: Discrimination and slander?
« Reply #1 on Feb 16, 2012, 7:59am »

Glennm,

Feb 16, 2012, 3:26am, glennm wrote:

alan: Just joined your chirotalk group. I am perplexed as to why you would expend so much effort engaged in dubious broad accusations and presumptions…
1. That I too take issue with many things within my profession, doesn't extend to include an indictment of an entire field [IOW problems aren’t systemic and that to imply so is a bigotry and libellous].
23. If chiropractic suffers from anything, it suffers from the lack foresight to more stridently distance itself from foolish claims and antiquated theory.

Since this is your first post, welcome to the forum. It is clear you feel settled and well substantiated in your positions but haven’t taken the time to understand either the purpose and rules of the forum and the crux of the criticisms. To have a productive skeptical discussion please review “How not to get banned” and FAQ threads in the Welcome section and the “Myth of the Bad Apple DC” thread (section: Hall of Excuses). These explain that in order to further good discussions we don’t allow logical fallacies like this one:

Quote:

I also find many temporally sound and in fact prescient. One doesn't need to venture far into the medical community to find financial abuse and clinical absurdity that remain sub threshold in the broader culture because medicine is the reigning paradigm. In other words, like most human endeavors, it's deeply flawed as well. It is simply better insulated from criticism by its cultural positioning.

Fallacy-Two wrongs make a right

Please also refrain from making character accusations like psychological analyses seeking to disclaim my criticisms as this is an ad hominem fallacy and likewise isn’t allowed.

Please take care to post on topic for threads. Your post was placed under a technique thread and was off topic. I moved it to the Jeers section.

As it stands, the other threads explain why your position that chiropractic problems aren’t systemic is without support and is too vague and unsubstantiated to warrant additional comment. I will point out that your statement is actually a good example of a systemic chiropractic problem,

Quote:

If chiropractic suffers from anything, it suffers from the lack foresight to more stridently distance itself from foolish claims and antiquated theory.

That's a systemic problem because chiropractors are indoctrinated in chiropractic schools to thought stop new information, including critical research, are presented with extensive amounts of anti-medical propaganda that is used to promote chiropractic primary care and do not get enough credit hours of research methods to understand how to critically evaluate studies. Further, research courses are given only after indoctrination in later quarters and with the caveat that they are forced by the CCE accreditor-implying that research is suspect which is misleading because the sum of the research is that chiropractic failed in its stated aim of correcting biomechanical problems because it has inadequate scope and refuses to eliminate false biomechanics from curricula. Additionally, since chiropractic methods are biomechanical quackery, refusing to discard incorrect theory actually is a type of thought stopping that prevents recognition of chiropractic's fatal flaw-that it isn't successful in it's niche. Selling chiropractic requires practitioners to have faith in it to effectively promote it so thought stopping this data is critical if a chiropractor is to be financially successful enough in practice to survive. This is a life and death issue for chiros and the reason they deny problems instead of fixing them. To expand scope would have some huge negatives in that:

1. Chiropractic would have to admit that the current practices don't work except as general manipulation, inferior to physical therapy prediction rule manipulation.

2. Chiropractic would have to spend much money and effort trying to create substantiated methods that actually can be proven to work in stabilizing biomechanical problems.

So the costs of losing credibility, alienating practicing DCs and their patients and risking it all on research for an unsure outcome are untenable for the deviant chiropractic profession. This is why it can't mainstream into medicine.

I also recommend you read “Combatting Cult Mind Control” by Stephen Hassan www.freedomofmind.com to gain an understanding of why propaganda is used.

Have a nice day,
AB

« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2012, 3:06pm by presto »

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glennm
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Re: Discrimination and slander?
« Reply #2 on Feb 16, 2012, 5:23pm »

Alan: Where did you go to chiropractic college? =

ALAN: Pardon my faux pas. I will post further comment in your jeers section. On a purely inquisitive note, I am curious as to why you chose Life College rather than National or L.A. as your ultimate alma mater? For personal reasons, I left my home state of New Jersey receiving my B.A. from Bloomfield College and a incomplete education at what was at the time, New Jersey College of Medicine and Dentistry. I attended Palmer in Davenport to escape the exigencies of my life in Jersey and because it interested me.

Parenthetically, I did not assert,as you stated above, that chiropractic problems are not systemic. If you have any interest in further dialogue I would suggest you adhere to your own guidlenes.

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Allen Botnick DC
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Re: Discrimination and slander?
« Reply #3 on Feb 16, 2012, 6:05pm »

Thank you for that clarification. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Please do review the above threads and sources so you may understand where we (forum members) are coming from.

I went to Life University from 1992-1996, graduating magna cum laude. Chirobase.org has two articles about my experiences. "Why I quit chiropractic" and "Some Notes on Life College's Assembly and Its Money Hum."

Why did I put so much effort into informing the public about these problems? Because I have a good heart I suppose. Back when I started we really needed a skeptical approach to get to the bottom of things and it was a chaotic situation led by charismatic individuals. NACM Reformists were pushing the PT/restricted lesion model now known to be false and chiropractors couldn't clearly see that the biomechanical niche doesn't work. We also have the huge damages, mostly hidden. They include: injuries due to delayed medical treatment, unnecessary strokes, stimying development of effective biomechanical treatment and indebting students for bogus education using false claims. I was financially taken advantage of and I've seen the rest of the problems so I felt a duty to do my best to raise awareness and hope that others could productively use the information.

« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2012, 8:24pm by Allen Botnick DC »

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princessindie
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Re: Discrimination and slander?
« Reply #4 on Feb 20, 2012, 6:41pm »

Maybe Alan should read up on Dr. Jim Gudgel, Dr. Gudgel is a physiotherapist AND a chiropractor. He is doing some of the best work in the Chiropractic field.

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Allen Botnick DC
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Re: Discrimination and slander?
« Reply #5 on Feb 20, 2012, 9:10pm »

By work you must mean hawking a dubious muscle testing protocol to sell solenoid adjusting instruments at Neuromechanical Innovations. Research citations = 0. I am not impressed.

DCs love to use MDs and PTs for credibility, I think that is what is going on with him.

« Last Edit: Feb 20, 2012, 9:27pm by Allen Botnick DC »

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upwinger
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Re: Discrimination and slander?
« Reply #6 on Feb 20, 2012, 9:56pm »

http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-1912....k-28335595.html

Help me! Someone please help me. My spine is subluxated and I can't get up.

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