Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
This forum « Thread Started on Oct 15, 2011, 9:11am »
There has been a point raised that bears re iteration.
"Why are there people here who are not chiropractors" There have been many comments made asking why there would be people here that have not gone the chiropractic route as a carreer and are discussing it here. It has been brought up that those who have not attended a chiropractic program have no idea what they are talking about.
In one sense I would absolutely agree. For someone like myself or a nurse or another non chiro we would be and are at a loss to discuss any pure chiro program content as we were not there.
But then the other side to this is that we are still educated individuals in our own right and have had experiences with chiropractic that have raised concerns. For me it is professionalism and ethics (or lack thereof) of several in my area that impelled me to ask questions. I looked all over and found this board had many of the answers where others (eg. chiroweb) are afraid to breech such subjects. I know that there are many of the general populus that read here wondering and looking for those answers too.
So, the question is this:
Do you feel that there is worth in having outside opinion for balance in order to understand more or do you feel this should only be chiropractors discussing chiropractic problems here?
If you answer this question please state reasons. Don't just write "No" or "Yes" And no personal attacks or name calling please. I have been called stupid among other things and that only reflects back on the writer not the person referred to.
For me, I came here to gather information. I am not a chiro nor have I ever attended a chiro school so I don't pretend to know what is going on in most discussions. I have a good friend who is a recent grad and he has made some outrageous claims regarding chiropractic, so I started researching and ended up here. I am also in a DO program that teaches/uses some similar manipulative techniques so I wanted to hear some other peoples opinions on alternative medicine.
Re: This forum « Reply #2 on Oct 15, 2011, 11:19am »
Yes!
I came here to gather information regarding the quackery in chiropractic. After working as a ca for 3 years and having to lie to patients on a daily basis, being worked like a dog for very little pay, being belittled and harassed, I needed to find out if that was normal procedure in a chiro office. I believe in manip for some cases but not the whole 3x a week program. I'd like to do my small part in combating this "profession".
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 155 Location: Toronto
Re: This forum « Reply #3 on Oct 16, 2011, 7:47pm »
Do you feel that there is worth in having outside opinion for balance in order to understand more or do you feel this should only be chiropractors discussing chiropractic problems here?
I feel this should be a forum for all to participate in. There are enough sub areas to properly separate questions and comments.
I too came here searching for answers and opinions about the chiropractic profession. Any comments that I post are from my experiences with chiropractic and what I have observed. I don't think a degree is required to state opinions and observations.
Re: This forum « Reply #4 on Oct 17, 2011, 2:14pm »
I have no opinion about who posts on these boards (which is irrelevant anyway). I do have an opinion about people who make comments about chiropractic education when they have no had one. If they want to talk about that quack down the street that cons the ignorant into weekly appointments for life etc, fine- but if they want to say that chiropractors are poorly trained and ignorant of human biology, I think they must have have had that education to say it is deficient.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,545 Location: USA
Re: This forum « Reply #5 on Oct 17, 2011, 4:56pm »
DCDO,
Given that DCs brag that they are as well trained and better trained than MD/DOs then it is inevitable that they will rebut-and rightly so. Now MDs will review accreditation standards, testimony from DC alumni, court cases against chiropractic schools and diplomate standards. After doing so they note a huge gap between the two-after all DCs are limited scope quacks and that is exactly what their training provides. So regardless of whether they have personal knowledge they are entitled to make the comparison.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
Re: This forum « Reply #6 on Oct 17, 2011, 6:06pm »
I have a DC degree, and I can attest that chiropractic schools absolutely do not provide the training necessary to qualify people to do the things a chiropractic license allows one to do in most states. Some graduates have acquired additional training on their own, but neither the schools nor the NBCE, nor the state boards verify this training or specify what it qualifies them to do. The boards have not kept unqualified people from treating the public, if that was ever their intention.
And don't start with "my school is better than your school." As has been discussed at length here, the data shows that students from more academically rigorous schools actually fare worse on the board exams. Once a graduate is licensed, no one cares what school they attended. As long as any school is able to turn out unqualified graduates and they are able to pass the boards, a chiropractic license and, by extension, a chiropractic degree is essentially meaningless.
I have no opinion about who posts on these boards (which is irrelevant anyway). I do have an opinion about people who make comments about chiropractic education when they have no had one. If they want to talk about that quack down the street that cons the ignorant into weekly appointments for life etc, fine- but if they want to say that chiropractors are poorly trained and ignorant of human biology, I think they must have have had that education to say it is deficient.
If it was irrelevant you would not have called me those names...(stupid, clueless,etc.) And you might want to take notice that the only ones bashing the DC education are other DC's.
Re: This forum « Reply #8 on Oct 19, 2011, 2:46pm »
Orthi, I don't think I addressed my comments about being stupid and clueless directly to you, but as the saying goes, "If the shoe fits...". The DC's have every right to comment upon their education. I still think I got a very good basic science education in Chiropractic school. They were all standard medical school textbooks, and I don't know what other schools were doing. To this day, I can tell you the name of every one of them. I read them, outlined them, and learned a vast amount- so I just don't understand what was so lacking. The clinical courses were also normal stuff except for the courses specifically chiropractic. Perhaps one school was not better than another, but one student was better then another. I don't mean grades etc, I mean really serious study. I busted my butt to learn what they had to teach, perhaps some people didn't. I am always surprised at some of the "theory" that chiropractors fall for, because I KNOW that they know better. I KNOW they were taught enough to reason these things out, so I don't know what went wrong with them. I really don't. I think that Chiro schools taught way more than chiropractors need to know to do what they do. I always felt that the seed of their dissatisfaction with Chiropractic was based upon the notion that they know to much just to give adjustments. Just to do what most states allow, should take no more than one year of training. I would have no problem with cutting the time down to that and keep the scope the same.
I don't know why orthican is here in the first place. What does he know about any of it! He has not not shown that he has half the training of a chiropractor, and if he is not a chiropractor, I do not think he knows enough about the subject to comment intelligently.
Now about the pseudo scientist on this board: You are all VERY narrow and antiquated in your knowledge of the human body. You choose a mechanical model to understand and criticize chiropractic. In doing so, you are 100 years behind the times. OH, it works fine if you want to balance out ambulation with a special shoe, or fit an artificial limb, but it is no a way a complete or even adequate model to anticipate future disease or complete a cure, yet you rave on!
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,545 Location: USA
Re: This forum « Reply #10 on Oct 20, 2011, 5:34am »
DCDO,
As a board certified, experienced practicing orthotist, Orthican probably knows far more about legitimate biomechanics than you or any chiropractor. That's one reason he should be valued. A second is because he is from a science based profession. You really should be more respectful. Anyway, let's put it to the test.
Orthican,
Why don't you ask DCDO a few advanced level spinal and extremity biomechanics and foot orthotic questions and see if he can answer them. The average chiropractor will fail.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
As a board certified, experienced practicing orthotist, Orthican probably knows far more about legitimate biomechanics than you or any chiropractor. That's one reason he should be valued. A second is because he is from a science based profession. You really should be more respectful. Anyway, let's put it to the test.
Orthican,
Why don't you ask DCDO a few advanced level spinal and extremity biomechanics and foot orthotic questions and see if he can answer them. The average chiropractor will fail.
I appreciate your comment Allen but to ask a question that someone else cannot answer is not quite fair. A biomechanical pissing match will only result in one thing.
I'm not here to prove myself right or wrong over anyone else and never have. You know that. If someone here gets hot because I bother them then that is thier problem not mine.
However, if you want to we could discuss leg stiffness and how it relates to central nervous system compensations for ground reaction forces and what implications that has long term on the lower extremities and spine as a whole. That might encompass both those questions.
But, in the end what would anyone here care? And in the end what would it prove?. It is not the reason I came here.
Re: This forum « Reply #12 on Oct 22, 2011, 4:11pm »
I have a good friend who is a podiatrist. He knows more about podiatry than I do, including lower extremity biomechanics. He still does no comment about Chiropractic education.. He may have opinions about it, I don't know. We talk about medicine and surgery, not Chiropractic. He did say once that podiatrists did not like chiropractors making molds and ordering foot orthorics because it cut deeply into their business. I am suspicious of anyone with a financial secondary gain in bashing Chiropractic. Be it someone who attempts to get a legal settlement or someone in a competing practice area like orthotics.
Joined: Mar 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 8,545 Location: USA
Re: This forum « Reply #13 on Oct 22, 2011, 4:30pm »
dcdo,
I really can't believe you're a DO with this attitude but I have no doubt you're a DC. You can't so easily dismiss an argument based on a person's occupation. This is juvenile.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A. Botnick DC.
I have a good friend who is a podiatrist. He knows more about podiatry than I do, including lower extremity biomechanics. He still does no comment about Chiropractic education.. He may have opinions about it, I don't know. We talk about medicine and surgery, not Chiropractic. He did say once that podiatrists did not like chiropractors making molds and ordering foot orthorics because it cut deeply into their business. I am suspicious of anyone with a financial secondary gain in bashing Chiropractic. Be it someone who attempts to get a legal settlement or someone in a competing practice area like orthotics.
Joined: Mar 2010 Gender: Female Posts: 120 Location: Utah
Re: This forum « Reply #16 on Oct 23, 2011, 10:34am »
Yes. My husband is a chiropractor and I observed what it takes to become one and worked by his side after school. I love to discuss the real world reality of the chiropractic experience from my point of view and persuade others not to do become one. As far as my husbands education, I was a Medical Assistant for 10 years before converting to his CA and have worked in a variety of out patient clinical and hospital settings and will hold my husband up to any MD or DO any day of the week when it comes to diagnosis, anatomy/physiology, and knowledge of healthcare. We still have friends (he graduated in 2008) who can't pass the national boards. I am confident that anyone trained who paid the 150K to be a DC, passed their tests honestly, and are licensed are viable healthcare professionals. This doesn't matter given the fact the DC is a step child in the industry and most people don't even know what a DO really is. I don't know how many RNs I have had to educate about a DO! The misconception is DO's have less school and aren't as competent as MDs is just as frustrating as the misconception that DC's are just cracker jack quacks to me! The demand for chiropractic is crappy. There seems to be no life sustainable money in becoming one that is honest.
I am suspicious of anyone with a financial secondary gain in bashing Chiropractic. Be it someone who attempts to get a legal settlement or someone in a competing practice area like orthotics.
I read this and I'm trying to figure out how I would be in competition with a chiropractor.???? When was the last time a chiropractor made a stance control KAFO for someone??? I am referral only.
Oh and one other thing...how is it that there is no secondary financial gain in a standard chiropractor's office??? You mean the ionic footbath is not considered secondary financial gain?...or the foot orthotic you sell?? Or the wrist bracelet with magnetic ends?...The suppliments? Etc...
Surely you can come up with better excuses than this...
Re: This forum « Reply #18 on Oct 24, 2011, 9:08pm »
My father was Fellow of a College of Osteopathic Medicine and the only adjustments he gave were when I was young and had a headache. As far as secondary financial gain - I saw "supplements"marked up 150 percent, dangerous diets sold, hair analysis and ALCAT testing, medallions to protect people from cell phones and micro waves, and now "Brain based therapy" which promises to cure everything from ADHD to cancer. Beauty of that, say the "doctors" is that it's cash only. Fifteen thousand - cash only. Holy smokes - I did "therapy" on patients with machine that weren't even plugged in. Every single sprained wrist I worked on with these inoperable machines was "miraculously cured" after six weeks of insurance paid "therapy" with non-functioning machines. Don't you think these sprains would heal on their own in that time period?
As far as secondary financial gain - I saw "supplements"marked up 150 percent, dangerous diets sold, hair analysis and ALCAT testing, medallions to protect people from cell phones and micro waves, and now "Brain based therapy" which promises to cure everything from ADHD to cancer. Beauty of that, say the "doctors" is that it's cash only. Fifteen thousand - cash only. Holy smokes -
I did "therapy" on patients with machine that weren't even plugged in. Every single sprained wrist I worked on with these inoperable machines was "miraculously cured" after six weeks of insurance paid "therapy" with non-functioning machines.
You know, this is again the reason I started asking questions and looking for information. I would see people after they have had several sessions like that and they would ask questions in my office and have suspicions of thier own. For me at the time I had no opinion. Still, when I asked and did some looking I found there is enough out there to make pretty good comparisons. I have had many discussions with chiropractors, looked up many different techniques that had been described to me and was quite honestly astounded at what there is to be seen. You tube for the chiropractor seems to be seen a useful. It is, and it is not. There are more videos there that shed poor light on the chiropractor than there are good ones.
The combing of the hair comes to mind..... or anything with Donny E. ....Quite hilarious really... Wait,... here they are.
...Heeeeeeerrrreeess Donny!!!
it gets interesting at the 2:30 mark....
and your friend and mine Dr. Kita...
And remember folks these are trained professionals so please do not try this at home!!
Joined: Apr 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 960 Location: The Great White North
Re: This forum « Reply #20 on Oct 25, 2011, 9:15pm »
Which by the way looks a lot like his treatment for Dyslexia???
I thought chiropractic was supposed to be quite "specific?
It would appear that what chiropractic is depends on what the individual practitioner decides it is for him or her self.
Sort of like the chiropractic mentalist downtown...he only needs to "think" you better...but then how can anyone really tell the difference between some forms of chiropractic and body talk:?
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